EP 77: Spring-To-Summer Saltwater Fishing Playbook with Badfish Charters OC

The water can be 61 near the beach, 68 a few miles off, then colder again on the next turn and that one detail changes everything. We’re in that messy spring-to-summer window where anglers either adapt fast or spend a lot of time wondering why yesterday’s “pattern” died overnight. 

I’m joined by Captain Brian Williams of Badfish Charters (Ocean City, New Jersey) to break down what he’s actually seeing on the grounds right now: delayed warming, upwelling, inconsistent bait, and how those shifts ripple through back bay fishing and nearshore structure. We get tactical on fluke fishing, including when he prefers casting over jigging, how he uses the trolling motor to work small holes and edges, and a straightforward bucktail plus dropper-loop setup built around Gulp. We also dig into color, silhouette, and hook choices without the usual superstition. 

Then we pivot into the tougher stuff: summer striped bass and conservation. Warm water, low dissolved oxygen, and stressed fish make catch-and-release a gamble, and we talk honestly about when to back off, how incoming tides and upwelling can change activity, and why “fish the conditions” beats fishing the calendar. We also hit sheepshead pressure and size decline, plus habitat realities like eelgrass loss and how oyster programs might be the long-term path to cleaner water. 

If you fish New Jersey inlets, marshes, bridges, or back bays, this one will sharpen how you think on the water. Subscribe, share it with a fishing buddy, and leave a review if you want more practical regional breakdowns like this.

Richard Natoli Real Estate
Helping PA homeowners buy & sell with confidence. 267-270-1145 or NatoliRealEstate@Gmail.com

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Transcript

Bluefish On The Flats

Capt. Brian Williams 0:00

Those bluefish are doing what they do in the spring in our area where they're kind of mudding up on those flats, kind of lightly waving their tail around in the air a little bit, swimming around in chains like that. You can't beat that on the fly rod. It's we're just just out heart pumping.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 0:20

Hello

The Summer Transition Problem

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 0:21

and welcome back to the Fat Dad Fishing Show. I'm your host, Rich Natoli, back again with another show talking about the transition into the summer fishing. It's a big deal. You know, a lot of people fish the same way all year long and wonder why sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not. And uh a lot of it often comes down to you're not changing up your tactics, you're not understanding what's going on in the water and what the species you're targeting. So uh we're going to talk about that tonight. And we've got Captain for uh Baptist Charters FOC, Captain Brian Williams coming on. So we're gonna talk with him about that. We'll talk a little bit about Stripe Fast, a little bit about everything, and uh a little bit of conservation thrown in there because you know that's just what we do on this channel. So everyone, thank you for tuning in. It's that time of the summer where it's tough to get people live on and watching because everyone's on vacation and down at the shore. But oddly enough, the listens on the podcast skyrocket. So uh most of you are probably listening at this point after this is live. Uh, welcome everybody that is live. And uh as always, put any questions, any topics you want to talk about into the chat, and we'll try to get to those as we can throughout. And I will do my best to ignore my brother who I see in there, who will have nothing productive to add to the conversation.

Sponsors And Gear Advice

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 1:41

All right, and with that, let's go through the sponsors Great Bay Outfitters on Radio Road in Tuckerton, New Jersey. If you're a kayak fisherman or fisherwoman, or you've or you would like to be, you gotta check out Great Bay Outfitters. It is one of the only shops that has the on-the-water experience. So you can go down, you can tell Paul, look, I want to look at these two or three different types of kayaks to compare before I buy. And in that case, he's gonna bring them out back and you're gonna go on the lagoon and you're gonna get to test them out. That is the single most important thing for anyone looking to spend the money and make that investment into a kayak. It doesn't matter what your best friend has, it doesn't matter what your your brother has or whatever. It only matters what works for you. And Paul will help you to dial in on that. He's got multiple brands, even got the skiffs, and he is the guy who will get your your ride basically pimped out. He can do everything, all the wiring, and he does it clean the right way. So you want to power it up, he'll power it up for you. Uh, next one is Quad State Tune with Kevin Driscoll being your contact. If you have a Toyota truck, a Tundra, a Tacoma, 4Runner, Lexus 460, 470, great engines. But they could do with a tune to get better performance out of them. So if you want improved throttle response, improved torque, and improved horsepower. If you have a third gen Tacoma that has the gear seeking issue, this will take care of it. And they're not all that expensive either. You'd be surprised at how inexpensive these can be to get better performance out of your truck. You can reach Kevin at 484-633-5975. And then the last one, your final sponsor is me. I am a real estate agent in southeastern Pennsylvania. That's what I do to pay the bills. Yeah, I appreciate all the business. And I do have business that does come through. The people that watch this live stream and listen to the podcast, it is greatly appreciated. So if you or somebody you know is looking to buy, sell, invest in real estate in southeastern Pennsylvania. I am with Whitgert Realtors Cornerstone. Give me a call, email, or text. It's Natoli Real Estate at Gmail, or you can give me a call at 267-270-1145, or a text if you prefer. And with that said, we're going to jump over. We're gonna

Meet Captain Brian Williams

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 3:59

we're not gonna wait on this one. We're gonna bring Captain Brian Williams on right now. And welcome to the show.

Capt. Brian Williams 4:05

Hey Rich, thanks for having me.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 4:07

Yeah, thanks for coming on. I was saying to you backstage, and I'll say it in front of everybody. Throughout the year, I get a lot of requests for people to come on. And you know, I get the you know, the huge, huge, huge names of people that are like Jeremy Wade. He's not Jeremy Wade's never coming on. Uh and I don't know why we'd want Jeremy Wade to come on. But then I hear your name come up a lot. So I I I want to, and and for two reasons. First of all, you are a very uh responsible, I guess, outspoken conservation-minded fisherman, and you run your business that way. And the second thing is, as one guy said, he just catches a uh S ton of fish. Shit ton of fish. So, yeah, hey, it all depends on the day. So why don't you just take a moment, introduce people to badfish charters, how they can get in touch with you if they want to book a charter, and then we'll start talking about this transition.

Capt. Brian Williams 5:03

Yeah, sure. So my name is Brian Williams. I run Badfish Charters. We run out of the Ocean City area, uh, just over the bridge from Ocean City in Summers Point. Easiest way to get in touch with me would be to give me a call. My number is 856-371-4346. Or you drop me an email, also visit my website. It's ocnjfishing.com, or my Facebook, which is Badfish Charters OC, or capped Brian Williams on Instagram.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 5:34

Awesome. I I gotta say, I love the name of your business.

Capt. Brian Williams 5:37

Thanks.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 5:38

It's just a great name.

Capt. Brian Williams 5:40

Years ago before I even started the business, I gave the boat that name. So it kind of segued into the business at that point.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 5:46

It's a good name. It's a good name for the boat. What what number boat are you on? Are you still on the first?

Capt. Brian Williams 5:51

Uh, this is out of running the business out of it. This will be the second one. Uh, prior to that, I've had multiple boats through my life, whether mine or my parents or another family members.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 6:02

It's funny. I talked to, you know, I talked to a lot of captains over the past several years, and they always say, Yeah, I thought my first boat was awesome, and then I had to get a sec my second boat, and now I can't see myself moving on from that, and then all of a sudden they're on their third boat.

Capt. Brian Williams 6:18

Well, it's nice to keep them updated. Yeah, that's important for reliability sometimes. Or yeah, rebuy turn around and sell it quicker, you know.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 6:26

Yeah, reliability and the experience for your customers. Yeah, I think it's it's all important. So, yes, so thank you for coming on.

Water Temps And Upwelling Effects

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 6:34

We're we're facing right now, and it's a little weird. We don't have quite that summer shift yet. We haven't had those extended heat waves yet. Actually, I guess it's not weird. This is about the time where we start getting them. We start getting the spikes in water temperatures in the backwaters. What have you been seeing lately out on your trips as far as the the way that are you still in your spring patterns or are you starting to transition into the summer at this point?

Capt. Brian Williams 7:01

Kind of both at this point. It seems to go back and forth day to day, week to week. It keeps changing. I mean, generally speaking, we're behind a couple weeks on water temperatures. We still are, even right now. Like uh the ocean hasn't broken 70 yet this year. And you know, just yesterday when I was out front uh fishing some wrecks and reefs and some areas like that, though I was actually colder a couple miles off the beach at about 64, and then jumped up to 68 in a couple areas, and then I got back closer to the beach again, and it dropped even more again, back down to about 61, 62. So it was kind of all over the place right now. And then we had an upwelling four days back.

Speaker 7:39

Yep.

Capt. Brian Williams 7:39

Not as much in South Jersey, more in central and north Jersey, where the water temp for those guys dropped down to 51 for a minute, tight to the beach. Yeah, and then my bay temps still haven't broke 80 yet. They're still hovering between you know incoming tides in the 60s, like I said, and then outgoing tides might hit like 75, 76 in some areas.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 7:59

So for me, I don't know if you agree, I love that. Yeah, if if you have longer now, I I don't like the upwelling. Let's just be clear. But the longer that we stay in the spring temperature zones, I think is always better for the fishing and for the fish. So I I you know I hear that and I I think great. Now, let me let me ask you this. So when you're out there and you're seeing the 64 degrees and then you're seeing it go to 68, where are you getting the bite? Are you getting it in the 68 or the 64?

Capt. Brian Williams 8:29

If I'm out in the ocean and bottom fishing, that's not super relevant usually. Easiest way to explain that because I'm not dropping a thermometer at a bottom, is just feel the flounder or feel the uh sea bass when you touch him. Does he feel colder than the water around him or warmer?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 8:46

Oh, good call. Good call. I I was seeing some really nice fluke being caught off the beaches in middle New Jersey areas, so you know, like Atlanta County and a little bit north, actually. I've seen some really nice, you know, eight, nine pounders being pulled out lately. What have you what's your experience been in the backwaters the last couple weeks?

Capt. Brian Williams 9:06

Uh the backwaters have finally turned on for those flounder or fluke, depending on what region you want to call them. Down south, Jersey. A lot of us call them flounder. I know just north of us by a river or two, they call them flute. Same difference.

Speaker 9:17

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 9:18

It's just starting to wake up though. It's been like a slow progression of bait fish this year. We really haven't seen that explosion of life, like I'd like to see. Usually in the late spring and the summer, it's like one day it's a little quiet, then all of a sudden it's like bait fish everywhere.

unknown 9:36

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 9:36

We haven't seen that this year. It's just kind of been like here and there, they're showing up, but not that huge explosion. Bluefish and kind of sucked this year in the bay.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 9:47

The bluefishing sucked?

Capt. Brian Williams 9:48

Yeah, but I didn't see them up on the flats like I usually do. Wow. Not in any good numbers.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 9:54

Yeah, it's uh you maybe get the little snappers rolling through, and that's about it. That that's the worst. I to me, the bluefish is always so I typically fish further south. So I'm typically down in the Wildwood Stone Harbor, Avalon area, and there are some really nice flats. And to me, you know it's starting to really shift into a good season when you get those big bluefish up in the flats. So three feet of water and you're catching, you know, an eight, nine-pound bluefish. That's you know, that's that's a good indication because they're chasing the bait up there. But if they're not up there, I get concerned.

Capt. Brian Williams 10:29

Yeah. Yeah, that that's always a great bonus in the spring is to be able to run into those bluefish right around the first week of May or so. At least in my region in particular, we'll get like 30 inch to 35 inch bluefish just tailing on the flats and like less than a foot of water.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 10:45

Yeah, we don't we don't we don't typically get those down south.

Capt. Brian Williams 10:49

It's neat when you run it. It's a blast on the fly rod.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 10:52

Yeah. So do you do a lot of fly?

Capt. Brian Williams 10:56

When I can, when it calls for it. You know, there's nothing worse than spending hours upon hours trying to blind cast the fly out there for a fish that might not show up. But when there's fish around, if there's fish busting on the surface, or if it's like, oh shit, I threw four casts in a row and got bit on all four casts on the topwater, then it's really a good time to throw a fly out there.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 11:16

Yeah. So what are you what are you typically targeting with the fly?

Capt. Brian Williams 11:19

Striper, or in that instance we were just talking about bluefish.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 11:22

You are doing bluefish.

Capt. Brian Williams 11:24

Oh yeah. Yeah. If those bluefish are doing what they do in the spring in our area where they're kind of mudding up on those flats, kind of lightly waving their tail around in the air a little bit, swimming around in chains like that. You can't beat that on the fly rod. It's we're just gets out of heart pumping.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 11:39

So yeah, so okay, so I guess I'm a little bit of a sissy because I never target bluefish, even when they're up there with the fly rod, because I just maybe it's just I'm a poor fly fisherman, but I can never land them. I always end up getting broken off by them. Now I can land a striped bass, I've landed Mahi, I've landed shark, smaller, smaller shark, but I cannot land a bluefish. I'm gonna you're gonna have to teach me how to do this.

Capt. Brian Williams 12:06

Uh use tiable wire tip it. Real light stuff.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 12:09

Real you are using wire. Okay.

Capt. Brian Williams 12:11

I'll use a little piece like maybe this big. Yeah. Like a four or five-inch piece.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 12:16

Okay.

Capt. Brian Williams 12:17

That's that's all you need. That is helpful.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 12:20

All right. Well, maybe I gotta get out there and get that. All right, let's let's start off. I I want to spend a good amount of time talking about striped bass, but before we get to that, let's let's get other things out. So when you're taking people out on charters, what is what are what is it that you're typically going to be targeting over the next month?

Capt. Brian Williams 12:41

Over the

Fluke Charter Plan And Rigs

Capt. Brian Williams 12:42

next month, we've pretty much mostly hung up the striper fishing at this point in the year, mainly doing the flounder thing or fluke, depending on where you're talking to, where you're from. Everybody confuses that. That's why I said that twice. Yeah.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 12:56

I I get a lot of it because we had actually our biggest audience is New York. So we got a lot of New York people, and I they like to get on me about fluke versus flounder, and you know, the the South Jersey are like, yeah, you got to get to a certain point here before. So I just say fluke now. I I just gave in, I gave in to the peer pressure.

Capt. Brian Williams 13:16

It seems like the Mulligan River is the cutoff. Anywhere south of there, people call them flounder. Anywhere north of there, they're strictly called fluke. Yeah, everywhere north of there has a winter flounder fishery.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 13:25

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and the the the winter flounder south of the Mullika, you can get them, but it's not a very good fishery. I I remember back in the day.

Capt. Brian Williams 13:36

And and we don't have grass beds like that in South Jersey, not in a hundred years.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 13:41

No, and anything that could be is just dead. It's just dead stuff sitting in there. All right, so you're targeting fluke. What are you doing? What is it? This is the first time we've that we've talked, so let's kind of like lay a little groundwork. So you're out there, what are you typically having them put on? Are you casting? Are you vertical jigging? What is it that you're using for the terminal tackle on that?

Capt. Brian Williams 14:02

A little bit of both casting and jigging. This spring, I've done a lot more casting than I do other springs, probably because the bite was a little slow to start. And also it's been so windy.

Speaker 14:14

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 14:14

So I'm finding that if I just put the troll motor in, just hold in position over a small hole, very comparable to how you would speckle trout fish down south. Yeah, when you're fishing smaller ditches and stuff like that. Same idea. Work those areas, catch every flounder you can out of there, and then move on to the next one or the next edge and drop off. Generally a one ounce bucktail or one ounce jig head, and then anywhere from six to eight inches above that, I'll tie a dropper loop loop off with a three-o Gamagatsu hook on there and then both gulp.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 14:45

Okay, both gulp.

Capt. Brian Williams 14:46

Well, is there a is there a certain kind of gulp that you prefer on either hook or usually the four-inch swimming mullet, but then once you get a lot of tail biters out there, I'll switch over to the four-inch grub. Yeah, if I'm alright, the four-inch maybe came out like three years ago. Gulp started making that one, but it's like the smaller grub.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 15:05

Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna start getting into those tail biters in the next one.

Capt. Brian Williams 15:09

Yeah, something like this.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 15:11

Yep. And that's the perfect color.

Capt. Brian Williams 15:14

I

Gulp Choices Color And Light

Capt. Brian Williams 15:15

honestly I don't really think they give a damn much about color. I like darks. That's that's the way I see it.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 15:21

I'm changing my view on it. You know, I I always say the one thing I will say is this I will always recommend white because white just works. It doesn't matter what you're throwing. If it's white, it's probably going to work. I do believe that at night, using a dark profile or in dirty water helps, but it's not the color, it's the dark because it sets off that silhouette. For some reason, that bubblegum does tend to work, but I I don't recommend it more than anything else. I I just think the whole thing is just made for us at this point. And that's not the way I thought a couple years ago.

Capt. Brian Williams 15:57

Well, you gotta remember, at least in deeper water, the way the light spectrum works with light penetration down deep, white and chartreuse, some I think it's something like 40, 50, 60 feet, they both turn white.

Speaker 16:09

Yes.

Capt. Brian Williams 16:09

And then pink or some kind of hue of pink or red turns black at like 80 feet or something like that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 16:16

Yeah, and and the other thing is there are certain colors. I wish I knew which what they are off the top of my head, but as a fish comes closer, it changes color to them. So so you have to be careful. So that can startle a fish that thinks, okay, this is the prey I'm going after. You have it folded, and then all of a sudden it gets within a foot and it changes color, and they're like, Whoop, nope, and they pull off of it. So I I wish I could remember exactly. It's been a couple years since I looked at that. The the other thing is uh brown also apparently stays brown. So a lot of people talk about you know, bucktails and they make bucktails and they never use the brown fur, they always use the white. But I actually ordered I actually order custom bucktails with the brown because it stays the same color. So I'll I'm fine with the white head and the brown fur, and I don't see any difference. There's certainly no negative. I don't know that there's a positive, but you know, people are getting chartreuse and all these other colors. I'm like, I'll I'll just take the brown and the white. It's fine.

Capt. Brian Williams 17:21

Lights and darks. I mean, it's like even going back years ago, like the pre-culp days, the theory we used to always have was with minnows was fishing them contrasting to the bottom. So you'd keep a black bucket on the boat and the minnows would kind of shift over to a darker hue, and you'd fish that on like a sand bottom. On a mud bottom, you'd put minnows in a white bucket, they'd start to take on that color.

Speaker 17:42

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 17:43

I could tell you after about three months of a eel sitting in a white bucket, they turn almost ghost white. Actually, forgot an eel for a good chunk of a winter in a bucket in my backyard one time, and when I went to dump the bucket out, that eel was still there.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 17:58

Wow.

Capt. Brian Williams 17:58

He was still alive, too.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 18:01

Those things are crazy. Those like you lose one in the bilge, it's gonna be alive at the end of the season. Fortunately and unfortunately, because the once it once the stink gets there, I mean that's the worst. But yeah, I've I ask me how I know. My grandfather is very unhappy with me a couple of times when I uh dumped eels accidentally down into the bilge.

unknown 18:24

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 18:25

That's like an old trick we used to have when we wanted to play a prank on somebody down south. We'd take a shrimp and put it in their rod holder, and they wouldn't realize it was in there all day in that sun just bake and all right.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 18:36

I'm gonna have to use that. I'm gonna have to use that. So let me ask you, so do you still do that with the I mean, if you use live baits, do you still do that with the different colored buckets?

Capt. Brian Williams 18:46

Not really. I don't use enough live bait anymore to even give it much thought.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 18:51

Do you ever do you ever at this time of year consider well not this time of year, I guess it's a little bit later when the spot really come in. Do you ever use them for fluke at all?

Capt. Brian Williams 19:01

I mean, I suppose I could. It it just seems like it's more hassle than it's worth. The way gulps are, you're able to cast to the fish and try to convince them to eat it more than it was just dead drifting and hope that a fluke found finds that uh spot.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 19:16

See, this is why I love when new when there's a new guest on, because I don't know what you do, and it's interesting to me to compare. So I always tell people it I will fish live bait in a tournament, but I'll only do it if in two situations. The first one is if you're allowed two rods, because I'll put a spot on a circle hook and just let it go.

unknown 19:38

Okay, okay, okay.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 19:39

And because I'm a kayak fisherman, so you know, and then I'll just actively fish the other one. And the other one is if I'm eating lunch instead of pulling over to a sandbar, I'll just drift with a spot sitting down with the one rod that's out. That's the only time that I actually make the effort to use it, but I catch some really good fish on those spot, and they're never small, obviously, because the spot are too big. But you're right, it is it's just a lot of luck. And it's not very rewarding to catch something on a circle hook, you know, as you're drifting. I didn't do anything, I just started reeling. Yeah, you know, especially a fluke, it's not like the fight is gonna knock you over.

Capt. Brian Williams 20:19

I mean, it could have been they were hitting your artificials before you dropped that spot down, you just missed them. I had that instance the other day I was out in the ocean sitting on a wreck because myself was out scouting around, and I had a fish must have picked it up like four or five times, and every time just didn't find the pointy side of the hook. Then it sat there, gave it a couple more minutes. I'm still like, damn, this fish should be in here somewhere. Where'd he go? And then sure shit he picked it up, it ended up being like a five-pound fluke.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 20:45

There you go.

Capt. Brian Williams 20:45

That's a nice thing.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 20:50

Yeah. Well, they're not they're not exactly intelligent, even though people like to say that.

Capt. Brian Williams 20:55

They're aggressive, they're they're dumb aggressive, I guess is the way to look at it.

unknown 20:59

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 21:00

They're one of the more aggressive fish and how they strike. It's just that their mouth is shaped sideways to how our hook is shaped.

unknown 21:08

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 21:08

So unless they can turn their head and and get off the bottom, really flare their gills open, they can't quite grab the hook. Right.

unknown 21:16

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 21:17

Which I'm a believer in smaller hooks. I I like smaller hooks for fluke. Smaller hooks, thinner wire. I know some people tend to buy bigger hooks, longer. I I like smaller stuff.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 21:28

I

Depth Myths And Night Fluke

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 21:29

I typically, well, I guess it depends. It depends on what size I'm fishing and what depth. What what what are you doing at this time of year as far as depth in the well, where are you looking primarily when you're going out for fluke at this time? Are you going shallow? Are you going deep? Drop offs, docks, bridges. What what what are you looking at for all of the above?

Capt. Brian Williams 21:47

We're not quite in the time year yet where the fluke are in the inlets. I mean, I know they're swimming through the inlets, they just don't seem to feed there. I think that's just could be food sources, things like that. So mostly in the back, as far as depth goes. Sometimes people always say that thing, oh, what depth were they hitting at today, this and that. Honestly, I I think that's a lot of BS. I think it's situational based on where you are in the bay at the time.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 22:10

Yeah, and the temperatures.

Capt. Brian Williams 22:11

Yeah. Time of the tide, temperature, time of day, whatever it may be. I mean, I I could go and possibly catch one in two feet of water and then move across the bay somewhere else and go catch one in twenty-two feet.

Speaker 22:21

Right. Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 22:23

I think it's just more understanding how they relate to the currents and things like um temperature, which is an important thing.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 22:30

We had a conversation about this last week about the now. I think I do think that generally the depths change season to season. So as we get into the warmer weather and the warmer waters, they're going to go deeper because they need that, you know, more oxygen in the water and everything. But we are literally in a between stage. I mean, they are comfortable everywhere. And that's a problem for fishermen.

Capt. Brian Williams 22:52

Yeah. But even in the warmer months, sometimes think about where the food is.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 22:56

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 22:57

So they're going to go up into those shallows to feed and then go back down into those channels to maybe kill time or feed on other stuff that's deeper down in the channels.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 23:06

Yeah. Do you ever do nighttime fluke trips?

Capt. Brian Williams 23:09

Not specifically for fluke, but I've caught plenty at night, especially throwing uncented soft plastics around bridges and stuff like that.

Speaker 23:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 23:17

We used to see that a lot during October, like early October, it seems like we would have this push right on the backside of the mullet run. There would be some kind of transition there where I think some of the fluke would come in from the ocean. More of them would come in, kind of sniffing out those mullets, so to speak, and then end up on these bridges at night where you'd end up catching like a half a dozen fluke over 20 inches. All you know, you're in 30 feet of water around a bridge piling and you're getting down no deeper than two, three feet of water. They're all near the surface feeding on bait.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 23:49

That's a hell of a that's a hell of a night. Yeah. I it used to be I mean, I I say it a lot. My it's not used to be. My favorite time to fish for fluke is at night. But in the summer, it's the one time at night is where I say start looking up as a primary spot. First of all, I do say the bridges. The bridges are by far to me the number one spot at night throughout the entire season. But after that, that's when you can go back up in the flats and fish one foot of water. And they're going, they're going to be up there, especially, you know, not just in a flat, you know, flat, flat, nothing around it. But if there's any kind of structure in there, any type of predictable current, they will move up there at night and just gorge themselves up on those flats.

Capt. Brian Williams 24:36

Well, that's how down south they have that gig fishery where they're, you know, it's albeit it's a different subspecies of flounder, because they're southern flounder, not summer flounder.

Speaker 24:46

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 24:46

But still similar behaviors nonetheless.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 24:49

Yeah, they're very similar. I mean, really, the only difference besides the size, the only real noticeable difference besides the size is generally going to be the salinity that they can tolerate. Right. So the the the summer flounder can tolerate near near fresh water without an issue, whereas the southern is a little bit or maybe I have it reversed.

Capt. Brian Williams 25:12

Well, I mean I think it's reverse with the summer flounder, I'll catch them up near a freshwater line during the cooler months.

Speaker 25:20

Yeah. Yeah, up in the river.

Capt. Brian Williams 25:22

Yeah, they end up in the same areas the striper winter over some of the fluke winter over in those same areas. I think it's just a selective thing. I think the main biomass heads offshore and goes out 60, 70 miles to the shelf.

Speaker 25:33

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 25:33

But sometimes, just like you see some birds that don't migrate in the winter, some of them just decide to end up in the deep holes that the striper are in. So you catch them mixed in in the cold months.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 25:43

Have you ever fished the Chesapeake?

Capt. Brian Williams 25:46

Not in a long time.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 25:47

So as a kid, you're there's an area, there's an area around Annapolis, the Y River. And I actually caught a summer flounder in the Y River. That thing is nowhere close. Like the only way to get there is to come all the way up the Chesapeake or to come down through the DNC Canal. I mean, it was it was essentially fresh water. And I caught, and now it wasn't big, but I caught it there. And in the same river, I ended up catching a Spanish mackerel and a bunch of huge specks, obviously striped bass and white perch. They were all all within the same within two trips. I caught all of those. And it's like it's essentially fresh water. So yeah, they they definitely do have the tolerance to go wherever they want, but the size of that thing tells me that there it was not there for a long time. It was a young, you know, it was probably only 10 inches. So they have to be spawning somewhere near there. You know, you're not going to get a 10-inch summer flounder into the Y River unless it was spawned fairly close. I think.

Capt. Brian Williams 26:53

I think they can move too. If you found a Spanish in there, same idea. They're following the beta. And so it's possible that flounder was doing the same thing.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 27:02

It was amazing. I that talk about the last thing that I ever thought I'd catch. We were just moving spots. We were catching, we were picking up some striped bass, and we decided, look, we're gonna head down this channel. It was about 40 feet deep. We're like, we're gonna head down the middle of the river, just a nice, easy pedal, and we were changing our gear over for specs because we wanted to hit a point, and the point was about a mile away. And I'm just trolling for striped bass, and I hook into this thing, I'm like, oh, it's a little striped bass. And I pull it out like, oh my god, that's a speck. I think I actually have it in the the intro to to this show in the that video at the beginning. Yeah, it was a decent sized Spanish. I was I was shocked though. Like I did not expect to see it there. I mean, you were hundreds and hundreds of miles from the actual salt, and it was there.

Capt. Brian Williams 27:51

Yeah, I wonder with their biology, what the salt tolerances are for both the fluke and the Spanish.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 27:56

So, yeah, I mean that a Gulf flounder, I wouldn't be shocked because they can basically almost live in pure fresh water. But I didn't think a summer flounder I would get it. And I have no idea about the Spanish mackerel because to me, those were always an outfront fish.

Capt. Brian Williams 28:12

Yeah, right. Well they're built like it. Anatomically, they're built like it with the hardtail.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 28:17

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But that was interesting. But it just goes to show like you you can catch them in places you wouldn't necessarily expect, just like the whole sheep's head thing. Everyone said they have to be near inlets. No, they don't.

Capt. Brian Williams 28:29

No, they swim up the rivers, people don't realize that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 28:32

They go everywhere. Yeah, yeah. We had Paul from Great Bay Outfitters on. He's like, they're not where you think they are. You know, we've been talking for years, and all of us, you know, we're listening to all these experts, and then it turns out they were wrong. We're catching them six miles from an inlet, eight miles from an inlet. And it makes sense. It makes sense that that they're all over the place. And I don't think that they actually leave either. I think we have a huge resident population of those.

Capt. Brian Williams 28:58

Yeah, it's I think it's an east to west migration more than anything. And same idea with the fluke. It's it's just like that. Some will winter over up near the freshwater and some will head out offshore.

Sheepshead Pressure And Conservation

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:09

Yeah. Do you now do you ever target Sheep's Head?

Capt. Brian Williams 29:11

Yes.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:12

You do? How do how do you like I'm asking for a personal reason. How do you like fishing personally? If you had a day off, would you fish for Sheep's Head?

Capt. Brian Williams 29:20

Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're a fun time and a little bit of a challenge. And I miss how it was 10 years ago with them. I it seems like I've noticed the decline in size and numbers of them over the years.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:31

Yeah, so 10 years ago. So you were catching them. You were catching them before everybody knew that you could catch them.

Capt. Brian Williams 29:37

Yeah. I think the pressures definitely changed them a little bit.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:41

Yeah, I mean, it was down in Cape May County, I would say it was kind of like the heart of where it exploded. And, you know, the first day that I actually caught them, I caught multiple double digits. Let them go, but I see guys down there pulling out 10, 12, 15, 8 plus pounders and keeping every single one of them.

Capt. Brian Williams 30:04

And they're old fish.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 30:05

They're old fish, and I know there are a lot of small fish, but it is I I don't know.

Capt. Brian Williams 30:11

I don't know the research, so I don't want to say there need to be regs, but uh, that's the problem is that there is no research in state with them. And the only way they'll put a regulation in place, from this is what I was told when asked. The only way they'll put a regulation in place is if they see a decline in effort for the species.

unknown 30:32

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 30:35

Which obviously there won't be a decline in effort because everybody and their mother's learning how to do it because there is no other fish to catch anymore. So as other species disappear, they're shifting their focus to the new species.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 30:47

So I did hear unofficially that they are doing research.

Capt. Brian Williams 30:53

They are now? Okay, that's good.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 30:55

Yes. Yes. So I'm very interested. Yeah, I I'm one of those guys where I get it. You don't want them to regulate something just on a hunch, but I'm really concerned because I I I honestly I don't have the patience for sheep's head. I just don't. I love catching them. I hate fishing for them. You know, I can't sit there on a piling or on pilings in a kayak for hours at a time. I'll do like a half an hour, 45 minutes, and then I'm on to fluke and strike back. I'm looking for the bycatch, you know, at that point. But yeah, it it it sounds to me like, and this is somebody that I think knows that they are there is actually some research that they're going to be using in the mid-Atlantic to to start looking at regulations. And I hate regulations, but I think we're in New Jersey or just in the mid-Atlantic, like the region. New Jersey.

Capt. Brian Williams 31:49

Okay, that's good to hear that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 31:51

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it's true, but this person I think would know.

Speaker 31:57

Okay, that's good to know.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 31:58

And has a and and has a strong indication that there's something going on with the research. So let's cross our fingers because you know, again, I don't like I don't love catching them, but I everybody else does. Yeah. And I hate to see, I would hate to see it get devastated. Now, weak fish was devastated for a different reason. But that's my favorite fish to catch, to target. And yes, it's a different reason, but I would hate to see something happen to sheep's head along the lines of of weak fish, and it's unchecked right now. And I when you're seeing dozens between you know three or four guys, it's it's a concern to me.

Capt. Brian Williams 32:35

Well, you've got guys cast netting them too, and then they're pulling them in that way. So they're not even fishing for them, they're just throwing cast nets around brood structure and getting them like that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 32:45

And I I talk to spear fishermen. I mean, they'll come through every once in a while, and they'll just come up and you say, Well, what do you see? And they'll say, No, there's none on your piling. Go to the next. There's there's a bunch over there. But they're seeing less and at least last year. I haven't talked to any this year. Last year, I talked to a guy, he's like, Yeah, I I used to see so many. He's like like hundreds around a piling, and everyone thinks there's nothing there because they're not getting bites. Well, they're just not biting, but there's hundreds. And and he was saying, you know, I'm lucky if I see, you know, 10 or 12 on this bridge where I used to see hundreds. So I'm thinking there's a problem. Now maybe they're moving.

Capt. Brian Williams 33:23

Numbers are down and the size has decreased, basically.

Speaker 33:27

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 33:27

So it used to be I couldn't find one under 20 inches in my area. And now most of them are hovering that 20 inch marker. So give or take a little bit, they're they're just not as big, which means you're going to get a lot more short bites out of them.

unknown 33:40

Yeah.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 33:41

And they're slow growers.

Capt. Brian Williams 33:42

Yeah. Yeah. Very slow. I mean, I don't know if you've talked about before with your audiences, but generally the growth rate, it's like at year 10, they're about 20 inches long. And then after that, they only grow in increments of like a quarter inch a year, maybe a half. And if something like that, so it you you very well are catching 30, 35-year-old cheap set in some cases when you're catching those high 20-inch fish.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 34:04

Right. And, you know, for me, uh generally, not every species, but generally the younger fish taste better. Yeah. So, you know, why it's kind of like a a black drum. It's great to catch 70 pound, 80 pound, 100-pound black drum. Why would you keep it? That's not that's that's not what you want to be eating.

Capt. Brian Williams 34:24

I open those up and see those worms and you thought you want to eat one again.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 34:28

And the big bluefish, you know, I personally I really like bluefish. I prefer, you know, a 20-inch to 25-inch bluefish over a 35-inch bluefish. It's just to me, it just tastes better. So, you know, I I haven't eaten a lot of sheep's head, but I just generally say, you know, the younger fish, you know, the mid-range fish are probably the better ones to be targeting and keeping. So all right. Well, I

Summer Stripers And Safe Timing

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 34:56

want to make sure that we do talk about striped bass because striped bass, everybody when they talk about you, they uh they always start with striped bass. And there is a transition. I know you said that you're pretty well done fishing for them or targeting them for charters.

Capt. Brian Williams 35:10

Wrapped up, yeah. I've got like one or two more trips just because they asked about it ahead of time and they're in town the same week every year. So I understand that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 35:19

Yeah, so let's talk about that and and let's also talk about the conservation concerns with striped bass as we shift into the warmer waters, let's say in about two weeks from now. You know, around 4th of July, we'll st we'll probably start seeing the temperatures creeping up pretty steadily until the, you know, until mid-August, where they're probably going to peak. What's what's your thought? Do you want to kind of just give your thought on targeting striped bass as we go forward into the season?

Capt. Brian Williams 35:48

Well, I mean, when you get into the summer months, they don't release too well. That's the biggest problem with them. You're looking at warmer temperatures. For the most part, they come in like a wet rag. You might as well hook a dog fish in some cases and it'll fight harder than a striper does when the water's approaching that 80 degree mark. Yeah, the other factor with it is most of those fish are summer residents and usually on the smaller side. They virtually don't exist anymore. Not in the numbers that they used to, because we haven't seen a strong spawn in about eight years.

Speaker 36:22

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 36:23

So most of the fish that are of that larger size class, most not all, but most of them have moved on already at that point in the year, or at least by now pretty much.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 36:33

I get I get people that get upset when I say that it's not really a summer fishery, because you you can catch them all year. To me, you change uh the smart thing to do for the fish and even for yourself is if you must target at this time of the year and into the summer, to me it becomes a nighttime fishery only for a couple of reasons. First of all, you're gonna have a better shot at them. But second of all, it releasing them into cooler water is going to be key. But I'm pretty sure, you know, the water's not dropping 10 degrees overnight, right? But there's definitely going to be a little bit less stress on them. So I I would say if you're conservation-minded, keep in mind the cooler the water, the more the oxygen is dissolved, the more dissolved oxygen within that water, the the better it is for the fish on their release. And when you're talking 80 degree water, even if it's midnight, it it's still only going to have what 80 degree water can hold.

Capt. Brian Williams 37:34

Well, it's also tidal and situational too. So a lot of times if if you have an upwelling that popped up and you're on that incoming tide, that cooler tide, yeah, with that extra oxygen in the water coming in from the ocean, those fish tend to wake up more. So, like if I were to say when would be a good time, early summer at least, to target them, look for when one of those upwellings is happening and look for an incoming tide. A combination of those things is going to wake those fish up a little more. Otherwise, those fish are just a little slow. They might not really want to eat much of anything anyway. They might take a swipe at a top water lower, but they're just not as active.

Speaker 38:11

Right.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 38:12

Right. I I'll be honest, one of my favorite things when I'm targeting striped bass is I I don't enjoy fishing migration as much as I enjoy targeting resident stripers. I just think it's a whole different thing. You know, it's one thing to find a big ass one mile strip of bunker and just toss a line out and just catch one of the 10 million fish that are there. It's a whole other thing to go up along a sod bank at dusk and fish a popper. You know, that's it's a whole different experience. But I I I find that you know that's that's what you need to do at this time of the you the bridges, though, again, bridges and lights at night, you'll get them. Anyone who has dock lights is just your best friend. But you got to keep in mind that temperature. I love I really like your your thought. If there's upwelling, you know, you can almost just switch it over because it'll turn them on. They're there, but it'll turn them on.

Capt. Brian Williams 39:06

Unless the water turns that really bad brown that happens sometimes, that would be the only thing that fights against you. Everything else about the upwellings during the summer are a good thing. You just have to know how the fish are gonna relate to it, whether it's a striper or a fluke, you you just have to know how they're gonna relate to that water temperature.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 39:22

Yeah. I okay, that's I love that you just said that. I I heard so I had about a year off where I was I was sick, so I didn't fish. And it just so happened, I was getting messages from a lot of people. I was like, tell me what you're doing, I gotta live through you. I can't hit the water this year. And I just kept getting a couple of those people are in the chat right now. I kept getting, if you were ever gonna get sick and miss time, you pick the right time because this upwelling is killing us. And I'm thinking, but the fish have to be there. You know, they they didn't go away, they're just behaving differently. And and now let's say so. We had upwelling the other day. How long do you do you see, and let's talk inlets and back, all right? So not out front. How long do you see a change in the behavior of the fish? Or does one day of upwelling really do much to knock things off?

Capt. Brian Williams 40:16

It depends how deep the upwelling was and how cold it really got. So right now we're still at the time of year where even with an upwelling, it's not that much colder than what the water was in the bay.

unknown 40:27

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 40:27

So there's not that giant contrast. Once we lock into a warm summer pattern where the water in the ocean's in the 70s and then it drops to 58 overnight, when I see that I know right where to go, and that's to some of the more early season fluke spots. Some of those spots that are in the slightly darker water, places that are going to retain the heat and they're gonna want to get up on those areas.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 40:50

Back up on the flats and where they spill out into the channels.

Capt. Brian Williams 40:54

Or you have the color change in the water and it's not quite that clean green water coming in from the ocean.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 40:59

Right. Yeah, we were talking about that last week. I don't know if you know Benji, crabbing and fishing. We were talking about, you know, where where you target them at certain times of the year. And he made the point, it's a great point, that it's not so much about the time of the year, it's really going to depend on the water temperatures. Because the water temperatures pretty well dictate everything. We can talk about air temperatures, but the fish don't care if it's not impacting the water temperatures. And and that's really what it comes down to. So now, do so. If you have upwelling and it's let's say it's a very short, deep upwelling, you get a change from 70, and all of a sudden you got 50 degrees coming in, and it lasts one day. Do you see that disrupt anything, or do they still stick in the same pattern? Does it take them a couple days to switch?

Capt. Brian Williams 41:48

I think you'll see like a hangover where they'll be there maybe the next day as it warms up, but then some of them start to move their way out of those areas.

Speaker 41:55

Okay.

Capt. Brian Williams 41:56

And I only say some of them, because others I have a feeling are just in those areas all through the hot months, too. It's just like the striper, they're not as active with the warmer water, or at least they don't appear that way for an angler. They're they'll still eat that crab that's on the bottom if it's in front of them. Right. They're just not going to be swimming around as much because the water is just warmer, less oxygen, things like that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 42:16

Yeah. Okay. All right. I I think it's a good tip for people, you know, and maybe it should be the theme of the episodes that I do is, you know, stop fishing the month and start fishing, you know, the conditions a little bit more, you know, because uh people do get they get locked into things. You know, I I hear people, you know, one of the old things, I mean you've heard this, once the the the dogwoods bloom and eight other things happen, that's when you start fishing for drum. No, it's not. That's just when the boats go in the water, right? Because it just happens to be that you always put your boat in in the first week of May.

Capt. Brian Williams 42:51

Well, I think back this year, I think it was three weeks ahead of the dogwoods, the black drum were biting.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 42:56

Yes, yeah. And there it was a nice bite this year, too. And it's still going on. It's still going on. Although a lot of a lot of captains are are kind of wrapping up their season for them. I saw some photos from a charter last night where they pulled in some nice ones down in Delaware Bay Area. Uh, for those that are wondering.

Capt. Brian Williams 43:14

I don't see a lot of them in my region. For some reason, they seem to skip my area. I'll get them as by catch, sometimes cheap setting.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 43:20

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 43:20

But that's about it really. I'd love for them to school up in my area, good. They'd be a blast on the flats on the fly rod. That would be great.

Why Ocean City Fishes Different

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 43:27

All right. So let me ask you this. So this we've had this discussion. Me, uh, it's one of these things that me and the guys that I fish with out on the water, we talk about just random things as we're baking our butts off in the middle of the summer, drifting around. There's something about Ocean City and Atlantic City that uh ruins like like you'll you'll have uh a species of fish just north and just south. And for some reason they tend to skip uh a brigantine and AC and OC. I don't know. And and the one that that the one guy kept bringing up was why doesn't anyone ever catch Black Drum? Because I know people that target them in Ocean City and they just don't catch them. Is there anything that you can think of? It's the river.

Capt. Brian Williams 44:18

It seems like behind Atlantic City, like Abseekin Inlet North, they uh they have deep water adjacent, but then they also have more of a green water and a river that's further removed from the inland ocean.

Speaker 44:30

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 44:30

So when you get up into the back of those areas, they still have clean green water in a lot of places. When you get where I'm at, you'll have brown water coming out from the rivers all the way out to say there is no divide of clean green water in some of those cases. Sure, we'll get it. If we get a good north wind or a northeast wind, it'll blow that clean green water in on an incoming.

Speaker 44:52

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 44:52

But then you get another blowout tide, it blows out all that river water again.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 44:57

Now now let's take it over to striped bass. What do you think depresses the striped bass? Is it the fact of the orientation of the inlet and the direction that it is?

Capt. Brian Williams 45:08

You mean like generally speaking, how the stripers seem to go out to sea more?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 45:11

Yeah, they just skip by. Is it because of the hook right there?

Capt. Brian Williams 45:14

It's it's the depth contour.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 45:16

It is.

Capt. Brian Williams 45:17

They tend to like that 50 to 100 feet of water when they're migrating.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 45:21

And that's nowhere close to your inlet.

Capt. Brian Williams 45:23

It's close, but not close enough.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 45:25

Not close enough, no. No.

Capt. Brian Williams 45:27

So it you know, we have plenty of 50 feet inside a three mile, but it it's not enough. They're not following that line down there out just a few more miles usually.

unknown 45:36

Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 45:36

So then you're just dependent on them to follow the bait in. Or fortunately, in some instances, because they want to swim up the rivers to winter over, you'll get them doing that as well. But the tricky part there is just that divide. Because that water that's out, you know, 50 plus feet of water, that water out there is going to be warmer. So as you get later into the fall, the water tight to the beach is going to be in the low 40s, maybe mid forties. You go out in that 50 plus feet of water, that water's going to be like 52 degrees out there. Right. So they're going to stay in that, swim through the cold stuff, and then head into winter overholes, and they just might not feed. They'll kind of slide under the radar on their way up those rivers.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 46:15

I'll tell you what, I for my money, and I fish the entire coast of New Jersey as my primary, you know, I'll go, I would consider regular territory for me. Anything from Staten Island in New York, I'll go down all the way through every inlet, every backwater in New Jersey, into the Delaware Bay a little bit, and then down into Delaware. And then and then I skip over to the Chesapeake. Out of all of them, I do find, and maybe it's just me, I have the biggest uh challenges in OC. It's just it just doesn't set up the way that other and actually I AC I think is pretty easy compared to to Ocean City. There's just something about that area for me that it's not that I can't catch fish and I can't limit and I can't catch a big fish. It just to me, it's just uh it just hits a little bit different. And I'm fishing it a little bit differently than I would just south to inlets or north to inlets.

Capt. Brian Williams 47:16

Well, it's even the same for me if I'm immediately adjacent to the river of the inlet or from a couple miles north or south. Because I would say it with the fluke is a great example. A lot of guys they hate fishing low tide behind Ocean City because they say they stop chewing. All you have to do is move over to the different color change in the water, and those fish will chew through the tide.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 47:37

Yeah, I was gonna say I actually prefer lower tides behind OC.

Capt. Brian Williams 47:40

Yeah, it's just you gotta find that greener water again. That river water dumps out at low tide. It's not probably not as much the salinity drop, it could just be the temperature increase. Yeah. When you're getting into that darker water that's coming out, it's gonna retain heat more. So it's gonna be a whole different ballgame of water temperature, oxygen probably as well in the water.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 48:00

Yeah, and that that it does bring out some hot water too in in the summer. I mean, that that water coming out of those rivers, it's not cool.

Capt. Brian Williams 48:08

That water's mid-80s. I've had it as hot as 89 up there during the summer in some areas.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 48:14

Yeah, and and if we're talking about water temperatures, that I mean, that's going to be a significant difference. Some of these other rivers, they're flowing out, and it's mostly a slower current coming out with less water unless it rains, and then it's cooler, right? But you you always have a steady flow coming down out of those rivers down there.

Capt. Brian Williams 48:36

And you gotta remember a hundred years ago there used to be yellgrass there to catch some of that sediment on the way out. That's gone out. You know, that that disappeared in the early 1900s.

Eelgrass Reality And Oyster Hope

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 48:45

Yeah, totally gone. I so this is a separate topic. I just want to mention this. I've been trying to find uh there's these organizations that uh you have the the Billing and Oyster Project and offshoots of that, but then there's the ones that are planting eel grass. And I cannot find anything in the OC Atlantic City area that's doing anything uh substantial. I was initially looking in Cape May County because uh I fish at the backwaters. I would prefer to not catch anything but fish in the marshes all day, just trying to find something. And there is zero eelgrass back there. And when you find it, you know, I'll put down a camera, it'll be six feet of water, five feet of water, four feet of water, and I'll look and it's all dead or and decayed, and there's no oyster. Every oyster bed is just dead oysters from ten years ago. Do you know of any that are any initiatives in your area?

Capt. Brian Williams 49:43

Not for eelgrass, from what I've been told by biologists, it's a lost cause. You need the water to be sediment-free and clean in order to plant it to have the photosynthesis that makes it want to grow.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 49:59

So that's what's that's what's killing it. So it gets blown out.

Capt. Brian Williams 50:04

It's possible with the oyster programs that are coming up, little ones here and there, mostly just different oyster farms where they're raising them in the baskets.

Speaker 50:11

Yeah.

Capt. Brian Williams 50:12

It it's possible that over time that'll put enough oyster in the water that maybe the water will clean up another notch or two, and then that would be enough for some of the eelgrass to take hold again, possibly in some areas.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 50:25

So we'll keep an eye on Great Bay because they they have some substantial or growing oyster presence there with the farms.

Capt. Brian Williams 50:33

Yeah, we have a couple in my area now, too, here behind Ocean City. Here's a couple guys doing them in different areas.

Speaker 50:39

Oh, good.

Capt. Brian Williams 50:40

Yeah. As far as success on how much oyster it's actually putting in the water elsewhere, I really haven't noticed it yet, but it's possible. You know, it's most likely it is because that's how they reproduce. They drop that seed in the water, clings to old shell beds, and grows more oysters.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 50:55

All right. Well, I'll I'll just have to cross my fingers and hope that somebody gets that going. I I just feel the need to get involved in something, but it needs to be something in the areas that I fish. Yeah. Right. I don't want to jump on like, look, all you New York guys, I love you. And I love watching your videos, I love watching or looking at your pictures, I love that you watch this and listen to this. But I don't fish New York but twice a year. You know, I I would love to see something in New Jersey. And New Jersey, it's really weird because they had such a great artificial wreck program and such a terrible every other type of program. And I guess it's better than New York, whose artificial you know, reef system is terrible. I mean, they sell us their their cars and we we put them off in New Jersey. But yeah, I I would love to get involved in something like that. I do have a question in here for you that I want you to have a chance to answer. How many passengers can you take? This is actually my brother.

Capt. Brian Williams 52:00

He's he's big into he's big into how many passengers can you take on a usually I do up to two for striper and and stuff where we're getting real technical or casting, or even for sheep's head where we're dropping down next to a specific pile and things like that. And then I'll do up to four for things like fluke where you're bottom bouncing, even sometimes tog, I'll do up to four. I just have to adjust the locations of fishing.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 52:23

Okay. All right. And what what what boat do you have?

Capt. Brian Williams 52:25

Uh it's a 23 Cape Classic.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 52:28

So you got the room. The question is, do you have the room for everyone to be swinging in the room?

Capt. Brian Williams 52:33

Yeah, swinging trebles or just yeah, moving around exactly. You know, if I'm in a foot of water, people are moving around on the boat. Shoot, if I have my dog on board and he moves around too much, he'll scare the fish.

Speaker 52:42

Right, right.

Capt. Brian Williams 52:42

So you get that many people out there like that. Plus, you you're also cutting a little bit into the draft of the boat. So when I'm trying to you know crawl on my belly to get in the somewhere, that many more people in the boat, even having too much gas in the boat makes that difficult sometimes.

Speaker 52:56

Right. Right.

Capt. Brian Williams 52:58

Because I'm rubbing that keel on the bottom on my way in the places.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 53:01

Well, I was gonna say, you you have to be you have to really know your area where you're fishing if you're getting back in there, because there are I have seen boats getting stuck. And you know, they get really jealous of the kayaks really quick, but there have been boats that have been stuck, and I've just I've had to bring up my drive in the kayak to get out of where they were.

Capt. Brian Williams 53:19

Well, that's what I do with the trolling motor too in my boat, uh getting up on the bow, I'm lifting the trolling motor up just enough that it's getting in the water, but just enough that it can keep me having forward momentum to drag me through that mud somewhere to get from A to B.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 53:32

Uh you know what's funny, my brother and I on my on my boat, we used to go out and we were stupid. Like we we would just run right up into the flats and just wait, and it was always too long, mainly because we were screwing around and not paying attention. Did you ever get in a situation where you had to take the anchor and throw it and then pull yourself with the anchor across?

unknown 53:55

Oh my god.

Capt. Brian Williams 53:56

I understand what that means, but I can't say I've had to do that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 53:59

Yeah, well, behind Avalon had to do that, and that muck smells terrible. So the entire bow of the boat and you, yeah. So all right. Is there anything

Booking Info And Sign Off

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 54:08

that you want to add for people? We're uh we're up at the hour. Um again, you probably share your contact information uh for those that want to go out on a charter. You want to you want to uh put out your information one more time?

Capt. Brian Williams 54:20

Oh yeah, oh yeah, no problem. Yes. Uh so it's ocnjfishing.com is my website. Um, you can also look me up on Instagram, it's Cap Brian Williams and on Facebook at Spanfish Charters OC. Uh, easiest way to get a hold of me is email or phone call. Uh, I don't always get the DMs on the uh social media as easily.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 54:40

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to a good summer. I'm planning on being out sometime in the next uh two weeks. I got a a new granddaughter on the way, so I need to get my fishing done before that.

Capt. Brian Williams 54:56

I'm here to fish now. You know, everything's waking up for summer. I'm just waiting on the Toby to show up. That would be great.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 55:01

Yeah, so I I was planning on going this past weekend, but I was actually I just got back today from uh the Shenandoah River, and I was planning on doing some fresh water there, and it's the drought down there is just as bad as up here. The water was only about a foot deep. Wow. And the Shenandoah, I was like, come on, man. So we're on the dock, and I can literally see the bottom of the third nerf here. I was like, I I see one rock bass. And this is like legendary smallmouth fishing, and nope, couldn't get them. So I'm looking forward to getting out there soon. Uh, I got the kayak all ready and charged up. So thank you again for coming on. I appreciate it.

Capt. Brian Williams 55:42

Thanks for having me.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 55:43

Yeah, anytime. And uh everyone will be back next week. So until next week, everyone get out there, get on the water and get some tight lines.