EP 76: 9+ Tips for Fishing the Summer Transition with Capt. Ben

The bite doesn’t “die” when the seasons change. Your old pattern does. Rich Natoli sits down with Captain Benji Bar to talk through the late spring to early summer saltwater fishing transition in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast, with practical, on-the-water guidance you can apply right away.

We dig into the biggest driver first: water temperature. Not air temp, not the date, not what worked last year on June 15. As temps swing from the low 60s into the 70s, fish reposition, bait shifts, and your best water changes with it. We talk fluke depth moves from skinny water to double-digit depths, why structure and current edges matter more now, and how understanding baitfish movement helps you predict where fish will stage rather than chasing yesterday’s reports.

Then we get into timing and behavior. As summer sets in, striped bass can turn into a low-light game in the backwaters, with current, bridges, and channel edges becoming the reliable zones. We also break down how tides and dissolved oxygen can make or break a trip, including why an outgoing tide can pull hot, low-oxygen water off the flats and shut down the afternoon, while an incoming tide can refresh a spot.

We wrap with smart tackle adjustments: downsizing braid and leader for better sensitivity and bottom contact, why quality line matters more as you go lighter, and a few real-world notes on weakfish conditions and clean water. If you fish New Jersey inshore, back bays, or nearby coastal waters, this is the roadmap for staying consistent as the season flips. Subscribe, share this with a fishing buddy, and leave a review with the one adjustment that changed your summer bite.

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Transcript

Capt Ben 0:00

You might want to fish in the morning when the tides are coming in. You're getting that cooler water, a little bit cooler water coming in from the ocean. It's more oxygenated, and it's not going to shut down the bite.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 0:16

Hello

Welcome And Seasonal Shift

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 0:17

and welcome back to the Fat Dad Fishing Show. I'm your host, Rich Natoli, and we're back with a show that's going to help you. This is a help you show. Let's just put it that way. It's one of those help you shows, and uh we have uh Captain Benji Bar coming on. He's gonna be sitting down with us. We're gonna be talking about this transition. So we have transitions throughout the year for different species. We have it freshwater, we're talking saltwater today, though. And we're we're hitting a transition right now where we're going from the late spring into the early summer, and the fish change. They they change the way that they act. You got to change your approach if you want to stay on them, if you want to have successful days on the water. So Benji and I are gonna talk about that tonight. And uh, I think it's gonna be, you know, look, maybe it's a review for a lot of you. Maybe it's a review for all of you, but maybe just maybe somebody's gonna pick something up or hear something and say, oh my God, I knew that and I totally forgot. I need to think about that. And that's what it's about. And you know, worst case scenario, hopefully you're entertained. So that's where we are. Uh, let's go through the sponsors real quick, and then I'll bring Benji

Sponsors And Kayak Talk

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 1:26

on. Sponsors, great day outfitters, radio road in Tuckerton, New Jersey. Paul and his team have a lot of stuff going on down there. If you're not following them on Facebook, you need to do it right now. Um, if you have anything to do with kayak fishing, Paul's got new products coming in all the time. He just had a video out of him demonstrating, I think it's called the Massa. I think that's how you pronounce it. Man, that kayak, that power kayak is awesome. He's doing circles of it in it in the lagoon. And it literally, he made the comment, but it literally looks like it has foul thrusters on it, the way that it's moving. For those of you like me who love kayak fishing, you don't get that. You don't get that with uh 99.9% of the platforms. I certainly don't get it on my old town big water. And I was looking at that and I was just thinking, wow, I could do a lot with that thing. I could do a ton with that. So uh if you want to check out any new kayaks, even kayaks that are used, he has them. He sells them on consignment. Uh, he has old town, he's got native, he's got a bunch of different brands in there. And the cool thing is you can try them out on the water. The shop is on the lagoon, so you can launch right there and test them before you buy them. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it. You should not invest the money in a kayak until you test it out on the water. So check them out. Next one is Quad State Tune. Kevin Driscoll is the guy that you want to talk to. If you have a Toyota truck, Tacoma, Tundra, Forerunner, even a Lexus 460, 470. They have great engines, but they can be better. And these engine tunes that Quad State Tune has will get you more horsepower, better, better throttle response, more torque. If you're towing anything and you have a Toyota, reach out to Kevin and see if it's something that can help you out because you're you're burning enough fuel. You're putting enough wear and tear on that engine as it is. This just makes it better for you. You can reach out to him at 484-633-5975. And then the final one is Lil O'Le, Rich Natoli Real Estate. I do residential and some commercial in southeastern Pennsylvania. If you or anyone you know is thinking about buying or selling or investing in real estate anytime in the next year or two, give me a call, give me an email, give me a text, 267-270-115-1145. And you can email email me at NatoliRealestate at gmail.com. Love to work with you. I love working with people that are referrals from this show. I have several of them uh over the past year, and it is greatly appreciated. That's what pays my bills, that's what gets me on the water every once in a while lately. So, yeah, so I appreciate that. And with that

Meet Captain Benji Bard

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 4:07

said, we're gonna jump right on over. We're gonna bring Benji on. Good to see you, man. Welcome back.

Capt Ben 4:13

Hey, Rich Natoli. Thanks for having me.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 4:16

Yeah, of course. All right, so you've been on a few times, but let's just make sure everybody knows who you are. So, why don't you give a quick introduction, talk about your your charter business, your guide guide service, and then let's let's talk a little bit about this transition that we're all facing at this point.

Capt Ben 4:33

Yes, indeed. I appreciate it. I've been on um got some frequent flyer miles now. This is probably my third or fourth time on the trail. So I enjoy each opportunity. Well, Captain Ben, everyone. Those of you who don't know who I am, I run a small charter business for crabbing and fishing down in the uh Summers Point in Ocean City, New Jersey area. You can reach out to me. I'm booking some trips right now for July for crabbing on the weekends only right now. 609-431-0017. I've been fishing since I was eight years old. My first fish, like many of you, was a stinking old catfish. Followed up by a little bluegill. But yeah, I've been fishing for a long time. I'm a little bit older than I look here. I know you you see the bald head. That's on purpose. Alright. But uh yeah, I've been hanging out with Rich and the crew for a while now. Got out there with with kayak fishing, got a skiff, 17-foot skiff that I run. Also have a 21-foot center console that I also run. So all types of fisheries. The flounder, the crabbing, the sea bass, you name it. That's what we do. Crabbing and fishing. You can find me on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. We're all over.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 5:42

That's awesome. My my brother is going to eventually be reaching out to you. He wants to do a crab and fishing day with his boys. So you can expect that. I don't think he's on tonight. He's usually in the chat picking on me, but I don't think he's on right now. A couple of things that are in the chat. First of all, welcome everybody that is in the chat right now. I'm seeing there are people that are just having trouble getting on the water lately. And that is that is a common issue that it seems like everyone's running into. Seeing the comment that the boat gives a dirty looks every time it uh drives away without it. Yeah, I think that's how my kayak is feeling at this point. And I do see Boat Tie Killer 545, Grassy Sound Fluke Tournament is this weekend. I was so excited to do this, and I had a schedule conflict. Can't do it. I'm I'm not going to be available to do it this weekend, and I'm really disappointed about it. And yeah. Are you doing it?

Capt Ben 6:40

I'm not sure. I'm I'm waiting to see what Joe B tells me there. Joe Bills is in there. He's saying, giddy up. We didn't get to chat about the tournament whether or not I saw the post of it myself. I've yet to join that with you.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 6:52

He he has no excuse. He can literally walk there.

Capt Ben 6:55

Yeah, he can.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 6:56

So, Joe, you have no excuse. Get out there. Let me fish vicariously through you guys. I will not be on the salt water this weekend. I will be on some fresh water. It's not my preference, but that's what I that's what I'm gonna be doing. Oh, that's lunchbox. That's right. Boat Bowtie Killer is lunchbox. For anyone who doesn't know lunchbox, you got to meet him out on the water. He is great for a drive-by. He'll swing by, he'll make you laugh, and then by the time you turn around to answer, he's gone. He is just gone and back in the marshes. Comes back later, caught a 22-inch. You turn around to talk to him, he's gone. It's all over the place. Yeah, that's him. He's he's the old hit and run. All right, so let's let's dive into this. Look,

Setting Up The Tip List

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 7:40

there I was gonna call it, let's do 15 tips. Let's do 10. I don't know how many tips we're gonna do. And I probably won't know them until I go back to edit this later for the audio version, and then I'll count it up and then I'll lose count as I'm doing all the editing. So let's just call it you're supposed to use odd numbers, nine. Nine tips, and then anything else is a bonus in there. And Bang, you're the guest. So do you want to start off with your first tip or first thing to keep in mind as we start transitioning from spring intowards summer fishing inshore and near shore in the mid-Atlantic and Northeast?

Fluke Slide Deeper As Water Warms

Capt Ben 8:15

I'll start us off, Rich. And I thank you because we haven't even gotten started and I've learned something already. He said we need nine. Well, I have an odd number, but it's not nine, it's only three. Okay. So number one, right? Number one. The number one adjustment, as we all know, right? Early in the season, at least for most of us, when we're out there looking for these flounder, we're we're fishing in the shallows, right? We're up shallow, we're looking for the warmest water we can find in the back bays. Well, as the water continues to increase, which right now it's up and down. I can tell you, I've been out there, I've seen wide, wild swings right now, anywhere from 62 degrees still up to 71 degrees, depending how close I am to an inlet versus the back bay. And quite frankly, the colder water is in the back, it's not up front as you think it is.

Speaker 2 9:03

Right.

Capt Ben 9:04

But so, you know, transition number one or adjustment number one that we're looking for is things start to heat up temperature-wise here. You know, we've had a couple heat waves already, but you're going to start working your way towards some deep cuts. You're going to, you know, start shying away from the shallows. I'm not saying you need to abandon them altogether because I did catch a couple keepers just last week in some shallows, and I'm talking five foot of water, but you're going to want to start moving to the double digits, in my opinion, and then also the drop-offs and the the channels.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 9:35

Yeah, I just start to cut. I I had that in that was one of mine as well. And uh specifically for fluke, right? So fluke early spring when it's cold, you're you're looking up at now, not always. Look, you can catch them in 60 feet, you know. You you just can when in the when the water's cold, but the best spots for fluke are going to be the shallower waters early in the season, and that's starting to change. There is a temperature tolerance for every species of fish. And when you start seeing anything around 58 to 65, that's that's really where the fluke kind of turn on. But then as you get higher and higher, they start looking deeper and deeper. So they're not going to be sitting up and baking on the mud flats in the middle of the day, especially as it gets really hot. So if you get a heat wave for several days, that's where you definitely want to start looking. But I'm with you. I'm looking at this time of the year, mid-June, and not even so much the time of the year, which isn't I'll make that the next tip. But when the water temperatures are where they are right now, I'm starting to look. Yeah, five feet is probably the minimum. I will fish shallower early in the season, and I am looking for double digits. So I'm in the 10 to 15 range right now, not a lot deeper as a place to start. I'll look there if it's not producing in that 10 to 15, but I'm looking 10 to 15 feet. And I love what you said. You're looking for the cuts, you're looking for the drop-offs. It's gotta there's gotta be some type of a structure there. Just don't look for a flat 15-foot mile-long, you know, flat.

Capt Ben 11:10

You're right. You want to look for your structure lines. I mean, those of you out there, you have everybody's got electronics. I mean, if you're if you're not fishing from land, you're on a boot, you gotta learn how to read those lines, see where the uh structure is out there in order to be able to find the fish. And then behind that, right, as we always preach, you gotta have that predictable current flow, you gotta have some moving water. But again, as these temperatures start to rise and increase, as Rich mentioned, there, you know, the the the fish change their their patterns, right? You got you got bait fish that are hatching, you got bait fish that are migrating in. Everything starts to change as the temperature rises. I'm preaching to the choir, right? Because we're all experts on the water.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 11:49

So I keep hearing how much of other people are experts and I'm an idiot, but uh I I still haven't found where I've outright I've given opinions that people don't necessarily agree with. But most if you know me, most of what I actually say is based in in fact and science. It's not me making crap up to sound smart. I I'm just repeating things that I've learned from like scientists, things like that for the most part. I will I will tell you opinions and people are welcome to disagree with those.

Fish Water Temperature Not Dates

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 12:23

But it actually, you know, that number two for me was stop fishing according to the calendar. So and it's like it's it goes back to what you just said, Benji. It's it's don't look at it's June 15th. That's when we're recording this. All right, June 15th, 2026. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is the water temperatures, as you just said. So fish the temperatures. That's what's going to really impact where the fish are and what they're doing. That's what kicks it off. If it's if it doesn't get any warmer than it is today all the way through the summer, they're going to stay in their pattern that they're in right now. They're they're not going to end up moving to these other spots if, you know, well, I shouldn't say that. If the bait moves there, they will, right? So as certain bait moves around. But for generally speaking, they're going to be sticking to certain areas and behaviors for a longer period of time, not because it's time, but because that's what the water temperatures are doing. So and and the other thing that I will mention is along with that, it is water temperature. It is not air temperature. So we had a couple of days that were 90 degrees plus, at least, at least inland. So you know, you had the heat wave going through. They didn't feel that that day, right? They only uh they didn't feel unless they were up near the surface. Day two, maybe they start to feel the water's warming. Day three, maybe day four, day 10. Now the water temperature has changed, that's what's going to really kick it off. And it does take a while for a lot of these species to react to changes in water temperature. Not always, and I'll try to get into some of those later, but for the most part, especially a fluke, it it could be 90 degrees today and tomorrow, and they they just don't care unless it changed the water temperature.

Capt Ben 14:18

Absolutely. You're 100% there. One of my components here does go into the you know the thermocline factor, if you will, right? Which is, you know, if you may or may not know out there, you know, that's the difference between the surface water and where the fish that we're we're searching for are. So it's a little cooler at a certain point. Well, as Rich mentioned, day one, two, three, that thermocline or or surface water temperature gets a little deeper each day, every day, every day that's warmer out there. That changes fish's behavior, that changes fish position that will make them move. So you you know, you have to be aware of these things. And you can look at you can look at your guides, you can look at your books. Here's here's mine right now, right? I look at these books, and as Rich said, you can't go by the date all the time. So you need to ensure, you know, at least for me, I need three pieces of information in my in my book here. What I caught, what the water temperature was, what the air temperature was, and and you know, and other pieces and components are in there as where uh as well, who who I went with, you know, what what part of the tide it was.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 15:21

But there's other things that you need to look at other than air temperature, you know, it's probably one of the least important at this point, especially for the mid-Atlantic and Northeast species. Now it can become very important in like Florida, right? Where you're fishing deep water is four feet in a lot of places, then it it has a much bigger impact. But we're talking backwater deep water in New Jersey specifically and New York. Backwater deep water is probably 50, 60, 70 feet in places. I mean, there are places that I routinely fish that are 45 feet. So, you know, it it's it's a lot different. It could be 90 degrees, 45 feet away. They don't care, they don't know. Fluke has no idea, it doesn't matter to them unless it's impacting the water temperature. All right. Do you do you want to do the next one or do you want me to throw one out there?

Capt Ben 16:16

Go ahead and throw one up.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 16:18

Okay.

Follow Bait Movement To Find Fish

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 16:19

So this is one of the things that goes back to to science. I'm not going to go into a lot of details, but it is absolutely critical if you want to be the best, most productive fisherman that you can. And I'm not saying everybody needs to be, right? People come to me all the time like, when does it go from being fun to being a job? I I get it. If you don't want to do this, don't do it. But the more that you know the baits in the area, the more that you know the natural species that these fish are preying on, the better you're going to do. And for example, you need to understand how they're moving. What are the spearing doing right now? Where are they coming from? Where are they going? What's moving out of the rivers and towards the inlets right now? At the same time, what's moving from the inlets and back into the backwaters right now? And you can use those to target the species that you're looking for. And that's one of the reasons why you will see again, I'll just use fluke as an example. They will start to move away from the rivers. Well, a lot of the bait is moving out of the rivers and it's moving towards the inlets. So understand where they are. So if it's bunker, if it's sand eels, if it's spearing, if it's just mud minnows, understand where they are at any given time, and then start kind of matching their pattern to where you're going to be looking for these fish. That's the that's the one that I have. What is that, number three? I think it's number three.

Capt Ben 17:56

Number three for you. And before we jump into the equipment and tackle, I mean, those are the obvious components of it, but you know, there's also some technical strategies behind that as well, right? You're going to change your your your technical techniques, right? Your techniques. In the spring, if you're chasing striped bands or striped carp, as you like to call them, you know, you're low and slow, right? You're you're low and slow with your with your your your reel. As the water warms up, the fish get more active. We know this. Not not rocket science, right? You you're starting to change things. You're starting to change your cadence, you're starting to change the speed that you're reel in. So that you know, that's another thing. Your retrieval speed in your presentation is going to change. Your your your what you're using to attract that bite is going to change. That's like Rich said. Match the hatch is a real thing. Know what baits are inflow, know what baits are moving up, know which baits are going out. If if you can't match and and entertain and get that fish's attention, they're just not going to bite. I'm not telling you that you can't catch a striped bass on top water right now and and retrieving across the top. You can, but the other thing you're going to need to adjust is when you when you go after that fish. Because you're not going to get them at high noon, high sun right now. It's got to be a little bit darker. It's got to be a little later in the day. It's got to be first thing in the morning. So another adjustment that you have to make as these temperatures change for us humans on top and out of water.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 19:27

Yeah,

Retrieval Speed And Low Light Wins

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 19:28

so I had one, actually, the fifth one that I wrote down was you really have to, and this is this is more specific to a particular species. So you mentioned striped bass, so let's talk about striped bass. When the water gets warmer, really when it starts what around 60, mid-60s, right? The water temperature goes up above mid-60s. During the day, it becomes a much more difficult bite if you want to go out and target striped bass, especially in the backwaters. Now, in out front, you got to find them. If you're looking for migration fish, it stays the same. If they haven't migrated through your area yet, it stays the same. Their migration patterns. But once they start transitioning over to the resident fish, which are going to be the ones in the area, their behavior changes. So they're going to be less likely to be biting during the day. They're going to look for those deeper channels. They're going to be very, very focused on current. And it very much becomes a night bite when you're talking about striped bass. I mean, there's no better time to fish for a striped bass in the summertime than first light, last light, and overnight. And I put it in that order. Overnight is just amazing. And I think a lot of people know that. But at that point, you're you're looking more at channel edges and structure that are going to kick the current off in a in a specific way. Bridges and pilings become huge for striped bass. But yeah, it's really, it's really know what the striped bass are doing. Now, look, I know, and I heard this before. I said this a couple of years ago on a show. I said the same thing, and I got torn up. You don't know what you're talking about. I do charters every day in the backwater. Yeah, great. You can you can catch them during the day. You can, but let's not pretend that it's the ideal time of the year to be fishing for striped bass in the daytime. So you can do it. I know guys, I know captains that are excellent captains. I know some guys that are not excellent at anything fishing related, and they will be the first to tell you, and they catch them all day. But it's it's not as easy as it is when you're going at other times of the day, like first light, last light, and overnight, because those temperatures really affect what they're doing.

Capt Ben 21:45

Absolutely. Yeah, it's just happenstance. I mean, if you're out there every day, of course you want to come across your target species because you're there every day that's fishable.

unknown 21:53

Right.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 21:54

And they get really good too. You know, you're guiding striped bass tours in the backwaters, and that's what you do. You get really good at it. You learn exactly where they are, but you're not catching the numbers and the quality, meaning size, of the fish that you're getting during the the cooler months of the year. You're just not. You know, I mean, that's the way I look at it. It's still a lot of fun. If you find a captain that is good at fishing throughout the day and you want to take those charters, yeah, there's no reason not to. But for the most part, your best bet first light, last light, and overnight for the strike bass.

Capt Ben 22:30

I I got another one I can toss out here for you if you're ready for it. I mean it and yeah, hopefully we're not insulting anyone's intelligence here with these things. But uh, as Rich said, hopefully, you know, somebody will be able to pick something new up. Also want to shout out you guys somebody on here from Okeechobee, Florida, you know. I saw that show. That's that's fantastic. That's awesome.

Incoming Tide And Better Oxygen

Capt Ben 22:50

But yeah, tides. If if you fish tides, you know, not everybody can hang out on the water all day long. So we try to uh time our things just right. I like to fish certain parts of the tides, but you need to be able to command the tide in the summertime when that's when the when the heat picks up and the stage change, right? And what I mean by that is, you know, it again in the inshore, near shore, and back bays, high noon sun, it it cooks those shallow flats as we were talking about before. So quite frankly, the outgoing tide is pulling out superheated water that's been laying back there on the mud flat, garnering all that heat, all that UV, and it's become low oxygenated, right? So it pulls, it pulls the water out of the marshes, you know. That can actually shut down an afternoon bite if you think you're going to go fishing in the afternoon and have a successful outing. It is something that you have to consider when it starts getting hot again. You might have to adjust your thinking and your thought process because you might want to fish in the morning when the tides are coming in. You're getting that cooler water, a little bit cooler water coming in from the ocean, it's more oxygenated, and it's not going to shut down the bike like it will when it's when it's you know too hot, when the water's too hot.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 24:01

Yeah, it's a good point. And and I think what people need to, if you don't know this, or this is one of those things that people probably knew, but maybe forgot. Cooler water is able to hold more oxygen than hotter water. So you look at areas, you know, look down south. I I fish North Carolina quite a bit, and I I I fish Pamlico Sound. So the areas that I go, it's really deep when it's two and a half feet. So it gets hot, like 96 degree water hot. And there's less oxygen in that. So when you find a break in any temperature, and you can find something that's, you know, even just regular cover, you know, ledges that have a current coming in from an inlet. If you happen to be anywhere within 100 miles of an inlet, that can make all the difference. There's just more oxygen in there. So think about it this way: you had this whole thing about playing back in the day, Mile High Mile High Stadium in Colorado. You know, the air's thinner. And, you know, if you've ever been out in Colorado and you're hiking up the mountains, you can get out of breath, even if you're in good shape, just on something that you can normally do back home, right? You just you walk up a hill, you're going for how about this? You're going one bar to the other, and you find that you're getting winded. I ask me how I know. You find that you're getting winding, you're like, oh my God, I walked like five times as far when I lived in Charlotte than when I'm just walking up this, you know, from up this street from one bar to the next. It's because there's less oxygen. Well, that's what fish go through when they're in the hotter water. It's just less oxygen than the cool. So if you can find that cooler water, especially on the really hot days, the bigger that temperature break, the better, because it's going to hold more oxygen, which makes it's just it's just easier for them to breathe. It's easier for them to live. They're not, you know, burning a ton of calories just sitting there waiting for their food. It's a it's a much more comfortable area, not just for them, but but also survival-wise for them. So yeah, it's a good point about the the oxygen. I had that on there too. Like it, it's just something you have to know. Now, you can also get oxygen from flowing water that's you know riffled and things like that. So, which is often to take it one step further, if you are fishing the hot water, so for example, when I'm fishing Pamlica Sound and you have a wind kick up because there's a storm blowing across. And of course, you're way too far to get off the water, so you just sit there and you kind of wait it out. Well, I look for the wind-blown shorelines at that point, where the wind is coming up against the weeds and it's kind of riffling the top. There's a temperature exchange there, there's an oxygen exchange there, and I target that for redfish. And the the most redfish I ever caught were before storms when the wind kicked up and it was just blowing along those windblown shorelines in the summer, 90, anywhere from 90 to 95, 96 degree water. And man, they lit up. Now, I don't know if it was because of the storm and the temperature drop, which is another topic, but they weren't biting on the non-windblown area. So that cool air started going through, started hitting those shorelines. And all of a sudden, I'm catching redfish.

Capt Ben 27:21

I'm willing to bet that there was a slight temperature change in the water, and they became active and frenzied. And you you you had yourself probably a banner day that day.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 27:31

It was fun. It was a little nerve-wracking if I'm being honest. A little story time. I I was I was getting nervous because I was miles from the launch and I had a prop kayak, and I don't like going through grass with it because you can, it'll turn it up, it'll it'll pull it all out. I don't like doing that. Not because I have to clean the prop, but just because I don't want to ruin the flats, the grass that's back there. So there's like these winding ways that you can go, which makes like a one mile really like a two-mile trip. And I couldn't get back. So I was really nervous, but I was like, I may as well fish. I there's nothing else for me to do. The lightning wasn't close, it was pretty far, but it was windy as hell. And I I just kept thinking, you know, worst case, I capsize in one foot of water, you know, and I was I was good. But yeah, it was it was it was great fishing, I'll be honest with you. It was awesome.

Capt Ben 28:26

I'll

Wind Lines Storm Builds And Kayak Lessons

Capt Ben 28:27

take that one foot of water. That's a lot lighter than what uh uh I took my tumble in a couple years back.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 28:33

Yeah, me too. Me too. Oh man. I I'm I'm fortunate. I I only capsized once unintentionally. Unfortunately, it was the Raritan Bay in March. And it wasn't really deep, but it was like a mile offshore off of Perth Amboy or South Amboy, sorry, South Amboy. I think it was like eight or ten feet of water, but that doesn't matter. You can't touch, you can't touch. Water, the water's in the the low 40s, upper 30s. It it's all that's scary.

Capt Ben 29:08

Nothing will make you realize how much muscle mass you've lost than trying to get back into a uh kayak after capsizing.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:16

So you know what's funny? I lost I lost so much fat over the past two years, I almost want to just try it. Yeah, I I would try it anyway, you know, to to to get back in, but it's gotta be different. I'm I weighed, Ben, I I weighed like 290 something, and I'm down to 215 right now. Oh man. So it's gotta, and but I lost a ton of muscle, but it's gotta be easier, right? I hope maybe.

Capt Ben 29:43

I would you know I I would hope. I don't really want to find out. I mean, I hit I had hit two, I had to hit 289, I'm down to 225. I just can't get that last 10 pounds, but you know, I'm a lot healthier and happier.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 29:56

That's all that matters, man.

Capt Ben 29:58

All right, I see my wife in the chat there. Yes, I did indeed keep fishing, uh, thanks to some help from Joe Bills and uh another partner we were after with, uh wrangling up my gear as I got over to the bank air. I uh you know got up on the side, gathered myself and and and retied the the one fishing pole I still had in my hand because I lost everything else pretty much. Yeah.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 30:19

But uh so I did the same thing. Yeah, I lost I lost all my stuff at the bottom of the rail. And actually, mine, I was really concerned when I went over. First of all, it's cold water. I'm all alone, except for there there was a boat there. There was a power boat, and they were fishing near where I was trying to come in. And they saw me go over. I mean, I was I was maybe 50 yards from them, and they're just they all come to the back of the boat and they're looking at me and I'm like, shit. I feel like an idiot, right? But I'm safe. I'm safe. So I go over and I grab the kayak, they start reeling in. I'm like, I'm gonna feel bad. Like, I think I can get back in myself. I'm gonna feel bad. So I'm I'm overthinking this at this point, but I'm still I'm feeling really good. Like, there's someone's gonna save me if something really if I can't get in, right? They reel in their lines and they take off and they leave. They leave me in the water in March, and they just they they just left. And for all of you that the the New York versus New Jersey Raritan crowd, they were New Jersey. They went to New Jersey, they did not go to New York, so you can't bust on the New York guys. Yeah, so they left, but but what really got me nervous then after that was all of I was trolling at the time, and when I went over the rods, the lines went around my legs, and it was braid. So 30-pound braid doesn't seem like a lot, but you can't break that just with your leg power. So I had to cut them off, which meant the rods all dropped to the bottom. I lost like a tackle box. I lost all my cameras except for one, and which wasn't even on, so I couldn't even get any content out of it. Yeah, so that that was rough. That was a rough day. But yeah, I'm glad that you kept going. I went straight back and got out. Yeah, I was done. I was done for the day. I'd but I did have one rod that I saved.

Capt Ben 32:14

I got back up when I was on the bank, I told her, I said, You guys keep fishing, you go. They went, and when I finally gathered myself for the side, I got back in the kayak, went out there, I kid you not first drop, boom, I had a fish. I said, yo.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 32:25

There you go. There you go.

Capt Ben 32:28

But yeah, that was to your point though, there was one boat that went by, and as he's going by, he goes, You want me to call the Coast Guard? as he keeps playing past. I'm like, nah, I'm okay.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 32:39

No thanks, man. No thanks. Thanks for slowing down.

Capt Ben 32:43

But it's all it's all good. I we we digress. I'm sorry about that.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 32:46

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. All right.

Weakfish Weather Clean Water And Structure

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 32:49

You target weak fish at all?

Capt Ben 32:51

I do not target them. Every once in a while, I'll get one by surprise, which is you know really my sweet pleasure because it's my my most favorite fish out there to actually eat. And you know, I'm so sad that I missed those glory days when my father and and his brothers and you know my uncles and and everybody used to catch catch the heck out of them.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 33:12

So yeah, back when a tide runner was almost normal. Yeah, you know, so 30 inch plus fish was like, yeah, I I just caught it. I I want to talk about weak fish two things. So so here's here's one tip that I'll give for weak fish to start. Weak fish generally prefer more stable weather than like striped bass. Striped bass, the nastier it gets, the better. Sometimes the dirtier the water, the better, right? They like they're just brutes. Weak fish are not. They're like, they're like the dude who drinks with his pinky up, right? So you so you have you have the bad weather, you have dirty water, really what it comes down to. The weak fish are probably not in that spot. So it becomes important at this time of the year because the weak fish are in. They're in the backwaters, they're out, they're out front near shore. But if you want to target them, and people are doing that more and more every year now, you will set yourself up if you look for the more stable, consistent weather rather than you know forcing it in some days. You just don't want to force it. How about how about that? I'll just put it that way.

Capt Ben 34:26

That's a that's a now and and even to target the weak fish, that's something it's there's an art form to it. Knowing what tackle to use, light tackle, you got tackle to consider, you got time of day to consider, you have uh hook set, plastics, whether you can if you can find some some shrimp that they love, you know, it's it's it it's a really an art to landing weak fish anymore.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 34:52

I think it can be. Yeah, I mean to to target them is just I I love doing it. I don't keep any because I still think that you know I want to return them because they still very, very low populations, but just the fact that they're back there now and you can you can literally target them on the right day and ex fully expect that you're going to catch multiple weak fish. If you know, you know, if you know where to go, you know, there are some techniques to it. I think they are they are one of the species that people overthink the most.

Capt Ben 35:25

Probably I really do. I've over the past two or three years, I've found one location that produces regularly. But yeah, it's just not at one that one fish limit is just not something that I target. You know, it's yeah, if I catch them by the bycatch and it's the I keep her size, I'm bringing it home because it tastes that good. I'm sorry.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 35:45

Well, if if you if you want to go and target them in Cape May County, shoot me a text. I'll I'll send you some some pins of some some things. And some of these are actually spots that have produced since I was a kid. So we're talking, you know, specifically Avalon, Stone Harbor, Wildwood, Cape May, backwaters is what I'm talking about. And a few of them, I literally was fishing when I was a little kid, and I would take the rowboat and I would row two of them. Or if they were further away, I would say I'm going sailing. So I take the sailboat, the one little one-person sailboat, and I would just go sailing until I got to the spots, and then I would just kind of throw the anchor onto the sodbanks and let it kind of position myself over top of these holes. Yeah.

Capt Ben 36:32

I would like to go up and so I'm gonna ask you, I'll remind you to send me a pin, but I knew the spot that I'm I'm referring to is probably down around the bend from you. I'm gonna call it an overpass from your favorite spot.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 36:45

There you go. There you go. Very good. Yeah. So but but weak fish, be be careful with those. And the second tip with the weak fish is again the cleaner water. They want the cleaner water. So that's specifically the reason that I had that on my list. Is yes, consistent weather helps. Cleaner water is important because if you have a thunderstorm with a lot of runoff, it does tend to turn them off. So they're not as resilient in their feeding. In my this is an opinion. Feel free to disagree with me, people. When you compare speckled trout versus weak fish, everyone thinks they're the same. They're totally different species. And I have no problem catching speckled trout in the dirtiest water in whatever. I can catch them. I think they're a lot easier to target. Weak fish, like I said, they're like all hoity-toity, highfalutin. If it's the conditions aren't perfect, they're not biting. And thunderstorms with a lot of runoff, the water gets dirty. You gotta look for the cleaner water if you want to target them, but you have to find the cleaner water in a spot that they'd really like. So I would I typically would say the first clean water in the right spot compared to where they should have been if conditions were perfect. Does that make sense?

Capt Ben 38:05

I think it makes sense. And James Flynn's asking, you know, are you looking at different structures for weak fish? Well, I I I I guess you could consider it structure. Rich alluded to it a little bit of uh, you know, he doesn't like getting it wound up in his propeller of his kayak, but those are typically the areas I'm looking for them that that has that type of material.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 38:26

Yeah, I as far as what I'm looking for for weak fish, I do best. Now, there are a couple of differences. Overnight, so here's another thing about weak fish. Low light is awesome for them. So talk about a night bite. Weak fish at night is amazing. Like for me, just like for with fluke, at night is the best time. Striped bass at night is the best time. There are very few species that I think you should not fish at night for. Well, like some go to sleep, but if they're awake, like those, those are three that I would always go at night first if I just wanted to catch fish. But as far as the structures, one of the things that I'm looking for, and let's talk about the daytime, because it does change a little bit at night. In the daytime, if you can find the confluence of multiple currents over a drop-off with a current relief next to it, like it still in a deep area drop-off, but next to where these two currents come together, especially two different temperature currents, that's where I get them. Which now you know why I can tell you that there are certain spots that I will show you that have been the same since I was a little kid, because it's still a drop-off. There will, and because of where they are, there will always be a drop-off there. So it's going from you know eight feet down to 20 feet, and the currents will always flow through there and they will always be different temperatures. And I'll leave it at that. They will always be different temperatures. Oh, I should say this on the outgoing, they will always be different temperatures. Yes. All right. Now I feel like just pulling up a map and pointing some out, but I'm not no, I'm not gonna I'm not going to. I feel like it, but I'm not going to.

Capt Ben 40:17

We'll save that for the big reveal show.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 40:20

Yeah, yeah. I gotta get on the water and do that. All right.

Lighter Leaders Better Line More Sensitivity

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 40:23

Do you have another one that you want to put on there?

Capt Ben 40:25

I was just thinking, you know, again, along the the equipment and the tackle, speed and stealth against or the speed in general. It you also start to look at, you know, scaling down what you're using, you know, because in the early springs, I'm using heavier braids. When it gets hot and I'm doing other things, I can I can lower that down. I can go down from I can go from 40 to 30 all the way down to 15 as far as my braid is concerned on my lines. And I'm also changing my mono and or fluorocarbons. You know, you you can change and lighten things up so that you can have better sensitivity on on what it is that you're targeting, what you're doing. So another that's a really for me a really big adjustment that most folks may overlook. Because some folks they like a real heavy leader at all times, and some folks like heavy breeds, mainline at all times. But you know, it can really impact, you know, it can really impact the the outing that you have if you change those things up a little bit, you know.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 41:24

It it it absolutely can. And I'll I'll take it a step further, and I think you you meant to put this in there as well. You at this time of year, you're going with the smaller baits because you're matching the hatch, right? Later in the season, later in the summer, when we do a similar episode, right? I'm gonna be talking about the baits, and I'll go again back to fluke. I'm I'm going to be using like the smaller, you know, four and a half inch, three and a half to four and a half inch baits right now, soft plastics. When it gets to August and that water temperature is up in the 80s, I'm gonna be throwing out the big stuff, like the like five and a half to seven to eight inch. I'm gonna be putting whole spot on for these things because I upsize the baits as you get further into the season. At this time of year, there's not a ton of bait in the backwaters and and near shore right now. It's it's emerging, it's getting more prevalent. So I'm actually matching the hatch a little bit more at this point, and I'm going with similar sizes and and profiles to the natural bait that's in the area. But again, that that will change as we get further into the summer. I do like your point though about the the tackle. You know, as far as liters, especially the braid, the braid, there's not a big difference in diameter, at least between like 15 pound and 30 pound braid. It's not that uh huge of a difference, but there is a big difference between 10 pound liter and 20 pound, and 10 pound and 30 pound, which is what a lot of people fish, you know, early in the spring. And there's a a big difference in the amount of drag on those when you're trying to get deep. So if you want to get deep, you should go with the the the smaller diameter liters so that you can get down there because otherwise the water is just pushing it up off the bottom. And I'm just gonna say this as a it's not a hot take, but some people will argue it. You don't need if you're in open water, you don't really need a very heavy leader to catch a very heavy fish. You can land a 50 60 pound fish on a 10 pound leader. The leader is there to protect you against uh you know breakage on uh their structure or their teeth, so on and so forth. I've never had a fluke cut me off because It bit through a liter, right? And I can fish very, very light liters. So in the backwaters, depending on where you are, you may be able to go really light. That's why surf fishing, I never understand why people put 80-pound liters when there's no structure for them to cut off on, unless they're near jetties or rocks or something like that. So, you know, don't overthink it and think, oh, I'm gonna I'm going for 40-pound fish, so I have to have at least 40-pound leader. No, 40-pound fish, you probably should probably have 15 to 20 pound leader in most cases. So don't hesitate to downsize. It'll make it easier to get down deep. It'll make it easier to work the action on the lure because it'll move better. So when you're downsizing your equipment, make sure that you consider that. And in my opinion, when in doubt, go lighter.

Capt Ben 44:48

Yeah, and and and following that up to your point with that is it it needs it really does need to be a quality um product, whether it's the leader or the braid, especially when you're scaling down, particularly when you're scaling down, it needs to be a quality product. Some of those less expensive gonna name names. No, no, no, namely names. But some of those lesser quality uh lines out there, sure. If you get 30, 40 pounds, you you you have a a a decent chance, but as it gets thinner, you have to have a quality line. You can you can certainly there's there's there's a time and a place to save money. But if you're going light, that's not it.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 45:34

Yeah, I I think that you're you're correct. There are there are some crazy brands. Actually, there are some brands that I don't even remember what they there were some really popular braids that I I I absolutely hate. And even though they cost more, like I I don't trust them. Spiderwire, actually. I don't trust Spiderwire. You know, so I I I think that yeah, you make a good point. Make sure that it's quality. Don't just get the one dollar stuff because it's you know one dollar on Amazon. Get the get something that you know is gonna actually perform the way that it's supposed to perform.

Capt Ben 46:11

I want to like spider wire, I just can't because it's so stiff. It's not that it's not that there's anything else wrong with it other than the fact it's so stiff. And then when it's done being stiff, it striates striates apart, it tears apart.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 46:25

Like that's that's my problem with it. Yeah, it like almost unravels. Or and maybe it's changed. You know, I honestly, full disclosure, I haven't used it in probably 10 years. But I it used to do that, and it used to drive me crazy that you'd spend all this, and back then, braid was really expensive compared to mono. Right? So when you're trying to switch off of mono to braid and you just you try to justify it, and then all of a sudden your spider wire that you're all excited about, you even got the shirt with the cool spider on it, and all of a sudden it's like unraveling.

Capt Ben 46:58

If I run if I'm in a pinch and I need some line and I run in there, and all I see is that spider on the on the thing, I I I I I let a big exasperated huff, and I turn around and go somewhere. I'm like, I'll do something else. I just I've tried to like it, I just can't.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 47:13

Yeah, I honestly I just like I've tried a bunch of different kinds. I just like the standard PowerPro. Uh slick. I I I have no complaints about it. It's not overly expensive. Now, different leaders. I I don't even remember. I've tried a lot of leaders, and you are correct. There are some cheap ones that are just horrendous. Yeah, you know, like you have 10 pounds I should never be able to take 10 pound in my hand and snap it. Like it should be cutting me before it happens. But there was a 10 pound, I think Ed was with me, and I I pulled this stuff out and I just pulled it apart. I was just trying to like tie the knot and it broke. I was like, what the hell happened? So I retied it and it broke again. I was like, this should never happen. So I had to, you know, I threw that in my bag, threw it away as soon as I got home. But yeah, it was it was less expensive, but it was crap.

Capt Ben 48:03

It's a similar story with fluorocarbons. All fluorocarbons are not uh created equally.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 48:09

No.

Capt Ben 48:09

So again, that's something else. If you're gonna buy fluorocarbon, you're gonna have to spend a little bit more money on a quality product if you wanted to do what you want it to do and have the expectations that you think you should when you're utilizing it. So I I urge you to go ahead and spend a little bit more money on your fluorocarbons if that's what you're using. Do you use it? I do on occasion, and I typically have a a bad uh a bad outing with it.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 48:35

Oh really? I I just I stopped using it years ago. And I think it was honestly, I think I was just you know, I was probably just being cheap.

Capt Ben 48:45

I just switched to mono, mono leaders, and I have much more success using a simple Barclay monofilament. Like I mean, it's Barkley big game monofilament is what I use, and I don't have any problems with that breaking off. I've had braid break off before that does. And yeah, again, that that's where these lessons are coming from. Speaking from experience here with that stuff, folks.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 49:10

Right,

Moon Currents Safety Reminders And Closing

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 49:11

right. All right, so we're we're at our hour just about. Is there anything that you think that we should put out there? I I still got a list of things, but I don't want to annoy people with adding more and more random stuff to it.

Capt Ben 49:24

Anything that we've missed that you want to mention? I don't think it's random. I think I think these are all good points. I mean, especially if there's anybody new on here and somehow, like you said, if you need a reminder. I mean, it's it it's things that we could easily forget, right? You know, scale down the reel too, you know, 3,000, 4,000 might be all you need. You don't need those big chumpies anymore. So some of you may never switch at all. You might be you might use three, four thousand all year round, but you know, and that's great. But those are other things that you need to make adjustments for when you change your targets and you change uh the locations that you're fishing from backwater to the inlets and and and making your way out to the reef. You know, you you change all your gear around, which is why you know here's that here's another PSA. That's why we have so many fishing rods and so many setups.

Speaker 2 50:08

You know, yeah.

Capt Ben 50:09

It's kind of like shoes and purse for our our partners, right? You know, you you go in, you grab what you need and you go. You don't have to uh tear something apart and re-re uh image it with something else. You just grab what you need and and off we go, and fun is to be had.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 50:25

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I I go out on the kayak with with four rods. They're all set up different. Well, actually, two are set up the same, and then two are different. So usually I'll have, depending on what I'm going for, let's say I'll have two set up identical with a top bottom with bucktails, and then and the back right, then one inside of the one. So those are on the outsides, so I can just reach one way, so I know where I'm pulling, right? So I can just I don't even have to look. When I used to be really fat, it was hard to turn around around. I couldn't see. I had to do it by feel. The next one in was usually a popping cord, and then the one on the other side on the left side was whatever I thought would work that day. So I was bringing out a lot of slow pitch. But what's funny is I usually ended the day with the same rod and setup that I started the day, and I just you know took three extra rods for friends, I guess. So I looked balanced.

Capt Ben 51:22

Listen, you you you never know. You get you get that break off and you think you're into a hot bite, and you're like, nope, let me grab something back here now. You got ready to go. You don't want to sit and have to tie something up.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 51:31

So no. Well, that's why I have the one duplicated. I I always have two of those. So yeah, so there are other tips. I'll just throw it out real quick. You know, if a thunderstorm, if there is a thunderstorm coming or a front and you get that low pressure, you will often see the fishing pick up, but make sure you get the hell off the water. So we'll we'll leave it at that. Um, and then the other one that I had is I mentioned this a lot, but it is absolutely critical. New moons and full moons. You get the additional flow of water, and people say it's the best time of fish, and then they get really mad because they didn't catch anything. The most important thing to know is you have more water flowing per tide cycle during those times, those periods of time. I don't care where you are along the east coast, whether you're all the way down in Florida, all the way up in, well, except for two places in Maine, the water, it's it's going to be flowing. You have to change your spots. You have to move to the area that's not necessarily the strongest flow, but right off of the strongest flow is where the fish are going to move to. And they will feed very actively. But, you know, a lot of people they just keep going to the same spot that was awesome, you know, last week. Well, this week it's now a new moon. There's more water. That space, that spot is blown out. It the new spot is literally 15 yards to the right. So make sure you consider that. You don't want to always fish in the the strongest of currents. So those are the last two. Just wanted to throw those in before we hit the hour. And uh, yeah, Ben, thanks for coming on, man.

Capt Ben 53:09

My pleasure. My pleasure. This is always fun. I appreciate the the invitations and uh, you know, doing a great job. I appreciate it.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing 53:17

Keep that. Thank you, everybody. Um, we're not gonna be live next week. Uh I have some stuff going on, and actually, next Monday night I will not even be uh in town. So uh Monday night is out. I am hoping, I think I still have a couple of old episodes that I can put up on the audio only uh podcast, and we'll see about that. But I will be back after that, and I am planning to go uh at least seven straight after that. So everyone, thank you for tuning in. This weather, man, this is this is the time of year, so it's time to get on that water, get some fish, share the pictures, text them to me just because I've been so busy, I haven't really been out as much as I'd like to be. And I'd like to live vicariously through all of you. So, everyone, until next time, get out there, get on the water, and get some tight lines.