EP 47: Seasonal Closures, Flawed Data, and Striped Bass with Jim Hutchinson Jr.

We unpack the proposed 12% striped bass mortality cut, why “closure” likely means a short seasonal window, and how flawed MRIP effort estimates are steering the debate. We compare regional impacts by month, weigh status quo against quick fixes, and argue for better data, smarter timing, and real habitat work.

• What a seasonal closure actually means and when it would land
• Why MRIP effort overestimates cast doubt on a 12% cut
• Spawning stock biomass context and the 1995 comparison
• Regional wave closures and uneven impacts by state
• Harvest vs release mortality and circle hook credit gaps
• Chesapeake, Hudson, and Delaware recruitment uncertainty
• Bunker abundance, migration shifts, and shark depredation
• Bonus tags, commercial quotas, and cross-state consistency
• Enforcement realities, court follow-through, and compliance
• Tagging tech limits, acoustic arrays, and funding needs
• Vote timing, state politics, and what happens next

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening, Stakes, and Sponsor Run
• 4:10 Guest Intro and What “Closure” Means
• 6:20 The 12% Reduction and MRIP Data
• 11:20 Regional Plans and Wave-Based Closures
• 15:30 Status Quo vs Cut: The Room’s Read
• 19:50 Targets, Biomass, and 1995 Comparisons
• 24:00 Spawning Uncertainty: Chesapeake, Hudson, Delaware
• 28:40 Migration Shifts, Bunker, and Omega Debate
• 35:40 Politics of the Vote and State Dynamics
• 41:20 Circle Hooks, Mortality Math, and Enforcement
• 47:30 Sharks, Depredation, and Ecosystem Tradeoffs
• 52:40 Bonus Tags, Commercial Quotas, and Fairness
• 58:20 Courts, Compliance, and No-Target Feasibility

Transcript

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 0:00

We are at the same exact number where we were 30 years ago, 1995, when we were all celebrating the rebirth of stripers. It's it's going up, and we're right where we were 30 years ago. And today we have the we have a 30-year low on striped bass mortality in the recreational community, and we're still talking about this 12% reduction.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 0:26

Hello and welcome back to the Fat Dad Fishing Show. I'm your regular host, Rich Natoli, and we're gonna have one of those episodes tonight, playoffs be damned. We've got to talk about something a little bit more important right now. Uh besides the questionable decisions of Rob Thompson and the lack of hitting at the top of the Phillies order, we got to talk a little bit about strike bass because as the title of this episode says, it could be closed. And that could be closed down not just for harvesting, but it could be closed for targeting. So we have Jim Hutchinson Jr. from the Fisherman Magazine coming on tonight. We're gonna go through, we're gonna talk about this before we jump in and uh we're gonna we're gonna skip quickly to it. Gonna go over the sponsors for the show. As always, we have Great Day Outfitters on Radio Road in Tuckerton, New Jersey. I mentioned this last show, and I have to mention it again. Uh, it is that time of year where the water is cooling. If you fish in a kayak and you don't have a dry suit, you've got problems. You've got problems in your head. Get into Seapall, get a level six dry suit, get a dry top, dry bottom, get the whole suit. I'll tell you what, I'm not joking when I say that I almost died. And the only reason I didn't die in the Rariton Bay was because I had a dry suit on. And I'll tell you what, it was extremely uncomfortable, even though I was in the dry suit. That's what, that's what uh March straight bass fishing can do to you in the Raritan. And uh, we just saw last week it, I believe everybody from that, I think it was a 20 26-foot boat, 20-some foot boat outside of Barnigan Inlet capsized yesterday. And uh everyone luckily was rescued by jet skiers and uh I think it was tow boat USA or one of those, one of those two. Um I I can guarantee you uh they wouldn't be wearing a dry suit on a boat, but if they had, they would have been a lot more comfortable. So get in there, check it out, Radio Road in Tuckerton. Then we have Quad State Tune, Kevin Driscoll. You can call him at 484-633-5975. If you have a Toyota truck, uh a 4Runner, Tundra, uh, you know, Tacoma, Gen 3 Tacoma, they have tune. He has tunes for the engines that are gonna make them more efficient, more horsepower, more torque. It's going to shift a lot easier on the roads. And look, if you're towing a boat, you're gonna want this. You need some more performance out of these trucks. They're great trucks, but this will make them better. Also gonna throw in there the Lexus 460 and 470, and then for real estate. I'm your guy, Southeastern Pennsylvania. Also, do partner with folks over in New Jersey, have some business over there as well, under contract at this point. So reach out to me if there's anything I can do for you or somebody you know, 267-270-1145. Just don't call during the show. And if you do, it's on silent, so I won't answer. Uh, with that said, we're gonna jump right in. We're gonna bring Jim Hutchinson Jr. Jim, welcome back. It's great to see you again. It's good to be back again, Rich. Thank you very much. Yeah, I I love when you're on. I have to say, I, you know, it's it's we always seem to have the conversations that are, you know, that they're so important. And look, we all like talking about how to target certain species, how to catch more fish. But, you know, when we're talking, we're talking about habitat, we're talking about the macro issues that can really affect the fisheries. And this is one of them, and it's one that we saw coming a couple months ago when we talked, and we weren't sure where it was gonna go, but now we've got you know, we've got the word closure on everyone's lips, including the Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council. And we got to dive into that. So, what is your summary as we now the public the public can't talk anymore?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 4:24

Public public comment is done. So, the first thing I would couch this by saying is I don't want everybody to get scared by thinking that striped bass is going to be closed. I mean, it's they're talking about implementing a seasonal restriction. So we are looking at anywhere from I I brought out my notes just to be case. I know it was anywhere from, for example, 34 days of no harvest down to 25 days of no target. So when we say season closure, I would kind of couch it by saying that we're looking at uh treating striped bass more the way that we have treated black sea bass and fluke and porties over the years, where we're gonna have a limited seasonal closure. And that that way we can get into the the nuance of this. But you know, we're talking about 34 days.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 5:11

So that said, where should we start? Well, I guess you know, one of the things comes down to now I didn't attend any meetings. I'll be honest with you, I didn't. I was going to go to the Pennsylvania one. It is a long drive after work to get there. So I went online and I submitted probably the most rambling, but as comprehensive as I could, comment directly through the website. So I at least did that part. Nikonoshevsky was on last week. He seemed to feel like he was hoping there would be more people in person. But do you have any, you know, any insight as to how you kind of read the room after the meeting that you attended? You attended at least one.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 5:54

So the way I read the Pennsylvania room was the same way as I read the New Jersey room. The majority of folks in both of those rooms really believe that status quo is the best possible option. That is the flavor that I got from the people in the room. Now you had roughly 70 people in Bristol, Pennsylvania, roughly 100 people, I think, in New Jersey. New Jersey did not have an online portion, Pennsylvania did. There were 15 members of the public online, but again, most of the folks that I have heard in Pennsylvania, New Jersey said just leave them alone. So let's get into this real quick. And just I want to break this down. You know, I said it before, everybody's talking about a closure. We're not talking about a moratorium, we're talking about a seasonal closure. So, what the ASMFC and the Atlantic Striped Bass Management Board is looking at is that we are in a rebuilding period, and we have to rebuild the spawning stock biomass of striped bass to 247 million pounds by the year 2029. Spawning stock biomass is those big fish, and I somebody asked me this question the other day. I believe they're the fish over 28 inches, could be 30, I'm not sure, but it is the breeding size, breeding age striped bass. So that's historically why we had the um the 28-inch minimum, because uh striped bass, a female is thought to have spawned once, maybe twice by that size, and they've always wanted to let them spawn first. So we are in a situation now where we're not going to, according to the data, we have a less than 50% chance of reaching the target and inside the deadline. Yeah, and the reason we are less than 50% at this point is because of the recreational community via the marine recreational information program. The MRIP is the survey that is administered at random. They take random dockside samples and they send random postcards and they couple they put all this information together to determine how many fish we catch. It's not an exact science. This inexact science over the last couple of seasons is showing that we're catching more striped bass in the recreational community, and enough so that we have taken ourselves off that rebuilding track to get up to the 2029. Maybe it's more like this as opposed to that, but we're not going to hit the 2029 deadline. We only have a less than a 50% chance. That's why the uh all the scientists, researchers, the ASMSC striped bass management board got together and said, look, we've got to reduce mortality by 12% so that we can get that 50% chance. Now, what I'm saying by mortality, this is very important to consider. You've got the commercial mortality, and the commercial sector has their quota, their quota plus their bycatch discard. They would have to take a 20, 12, 12% cut theoretically, on their quota. And on the recreational side, we have to take a 12% cut on our side as well. Now, I'm gonna throw some numbers at you. This is all data coming from ASMFC. I'm not making any of this stuff up. This is important to follow that in the recreational community, we are responsible. I believe the number is 84%. The recreational community is responsible for 84% of the striped bass removals, dead fish. The commercial sector is responsible for 16%. And again, this whole thing about the 12% reduction is based on the recreational data collection. I mean, if I were a commercial guy, I'd be up in arms right now, but that's not the we're 12%. Everybody's gotta take it, buddy. Of that 84% in the recreational community, you have 42% of that is taken from the harvest, and 42% comes from the 9% mortality rate on catch and release. So it's 50% either side. That's why there are two separate options there. Because if you have a, for example, a 34-day no-harvest closure, well, that's one thing, but if everybody had to stop fishing for stripers and you can't even catch and release them, it's got to be shorter. The original plan was like one month versus two months. Now we're looking at 34 days versus 25 days. That's why both options are there, because you can shorten your mortality reduction by just stopping stripe bass fishing for those 24 days. So that's why we have two choices. Now I'm gonna just kind of continue down this road real quick. This is what you would have heard if you had gone to the striped bass hearing with a lot more level of detail. What the ASMFC wants to do is rather than go state by state and ask each state to come up with their own 12% reduction plan, they have lopped all the states into two separate regions. The one region is the northern region, and that is from Maine to Massachusetts or Maine to Rhode Island. They haven't determined that yet. Okay. So let's just let's just use for an example, Maine to Rhode Island is northern region. The southern region would be Connecticut down to North Carolina. So each of those regions, those two regions, would have their different set of 12% mortality reductions. For example, here in the southern region, here in New Jersey, for example, most of our best striper fishing is in the spring and the fall. So the way they have listed this is they are looking at the one real option that is on the table for us is a wave six reduction. And wave six is based on MRIP. There's six waves of MRIP, and the six wave, the sixth wave of MRIP is November and December. So if we got the 12% reduction, the theoretical argument here is we are going to have to either take 34 days of no harvest from that or 25 days of no target. The way I've got that figured out, if if this gets approved, then the states have to figure out how they're going to meet out the reduction. So let's just say, for example, you lop off the end of the season. That means all of December, no harvest would mean all of December. And then the last day of harvest striped bass fishing we would have in 2026 would be on Thanksgiving of 2026. On the other hand, if you just stopped targeting, no catch and release, no nothing, then you would shut down the striped bass fishery entirely as of December 7th. Now, two things to a couple things to keep in mind with this. Obviously, a December closure, I don't think is going to mean as much to somebody in Connecticut as it does to somebody in Cape May County or Delaware. And then for the northern coast of New Jersey, the November run of striped bass is the penultimate. It is it. That's everything. So if you lose a few days in November, that really sucks. But a lot of folks to the north would say, I guess that's the best way I can deal with that. But I know guys down in Atlantic and Cape May County are like, we're just getting the stripers in December. How is this right? That's right. And Delaware doesn't get the the striped ass until December. So I think that that's that's problematic in the way the ASMFC is setting up these regions. If they really wanted to do the 12% reduction the right way, they would leave each state to figure out what the best way to come up with a 12% reduction would be. So again, uh there's there's a couple things that just if I could, Rich, and then whatever questions you have, but there are there are two factions here, right? You know, you're either in the camp that says, well, I can accept the 12% reduction, let's do it. Or you're in the faction that says, I don't think there's any justification on this, and I think we should just go status quo. Well, so let's go with the status quo argument real quick. The folks who are talking about status quo have some really good arguments. One, this is based on MRIP. And back in 2022, NOAA fisheries acknowledged that their MRIP surveys, the fishing effort survey portion of MRIP was overestimating effort by as much as 30 or 40 percent.

Speaker 01: 13:58

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 13:59

Well, they're supposed to fix that next year. So we don't know what that's gonna look like. If you shave 30, 40 percent overage from that, we'd be right on target, wouldn't we? So yeah, that doesn't make any sense. And the other argument for status quo is is also the fact that a 12% reduction in a southern region with Connecticut and South Jersey, two totally different regions. So that doesn't make sense. And the third point is there's a brand new benchmark stripe striped bass assessment coming out in 2026. It'll get peer-reviewed in 2027. That is a full benchmark stock assessment, which means they bring in new data, they look at the reference points. By 2027, we might have a different understanding of the status of striped bass right now. And a lot of folks are saying the 12% is good because striped bass is is plummeting. Well, that's that's not true. The where we are today is at a at roughly 200 million pounds of spawning stock biomass. We are at the same exact number where we were 30 years ago, 1995, when we were all celebrating the rebirth of stripers. Right, it's going up, and we're right where we were 30 years ago. And today we have the th we have a 30-year low on striped bass mortality in the recreational community, and we're still talking about this 12% reduction. So, again, there's two separate camps. I think there's an argument to meet on both on both sides, but but and and I haven't expressed my opinion. I'm just trying to deliver as much of the facts as possible. But you know, I I certainly see I certainly see the argument that was made in Pennsylvania and in New Jersey at those public hearings where they just say, just leave it alone, we'll talk about it next year. I I think that that's a valid argument.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 15:37

Yeah, I my my whole issue comes from uh so I have a background in statistical analysis and did it for very large companies. And I know a couple of things. First of all, if you give me one block of data, I will make it say what you want it to say, if that's what you want me to do. Uh it I can tell you that four out of five dentists like Colgate, and I can tell you four out of five like Crest, and I can prove it. Right? I mean, that's that's how they do it. My biggest concern is the quality of the data. And and making a decision right now based on data that you admit is flawed, and just based on what you would so I I'm also a little skeptical, right? So it could be off by about thir up to 30 percent, which to me means it's up to 60, right? So it could be, or it could just be, you know, but but they're they're saying it's in that direction. So I I'm wondering, I can't get out of my head why are they trying to do something now when they have this change, unless they're not confident in the change in the data collection for next year? Because we're not in we're not in a situation where it's not weak fish, right, from 15 years ago. They're not disappearing. We know they're still there, they're still on the incline. So, okay, we're not gonna hit they don't think we're gonna hit this arbitrary number, but they also have to recognize by their own admission, we actually might be able to hit that by 2029 if what we think is wrong with our data is actually wrong with our data.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 17:14

They if if they get to the stock assessment portion in 2026 and the peer review, they could they could knock down that that target. It's that's theoretical. I've seen that written by some people who are very conservation-minded when it comes to striped bass. But again, 30 years ago our goal was 200 million pounds, we hit it. Then what they did was the next time we went into a rebuilding track for striped ass, they decided to set the new target at 125% on the last rebuild. So rather than rebuilding it to 200 or taking it up to 220 or 215, they built it up 125% and went to 247. Now that's a pretty big mutt number, and that's only a number that we've only had for a short period of time in the early 2000s. Is it realistic? It could still be. But we are ex we are expecting this historic number when our fishery, the the spawning stock biomass right now is actually in pretty good shape, comparatively speaking, and growing. Folks are also conflating two separate issues because this is the this is the rationale for the 12% cut. But then somebody will grab me and say, this the spawning, there's no spawning in the in the in the in the ches peak. We're gonna have to shut it down. I was like, well, these are two separate issues.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 18:30

Yeah, they're totally different.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 18:31

Right. The goal is to put as many big, fat, feekin' female fish in the stock as possible. So that they lay their eggs and the conditions are right, we have a robust season. The problem is with whatever the problems are in the Chesapeake, we're not getting any robust seasons. Right. Um, they've been average below average the last bunch of years. Could be climate change, it could be uh blue catfish, it could be the lack of bunker, it could be nutrient nutrient runoff from the farms and overdevelopment, we don't know. So I would rather see, well, not that I'd rather, but I would really like to see a concerted effort to get a better understanding of the health of the Chesapeake. You can look up the Hudson, and if you go back in the numbers, a few years ago the Hudson was really good spawn. It was down the last couple of years. Actually, it was down last year. I think it was a little around average the year before that, but two, three years ago, the it was it was above average. Yeah. So we're still having some spawning success. Something that I learned in Bristol that I didn't know is um Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission biologist Tyler Grabowski ran the meeting, really ran a tight meeting, but somebody asked a question behind me, and it was a great question. It's like, what is the Delaware River responsible for in terms of the coastwide stock? And it's like, wow, I never thought about that. And Tyler said 15%. So if you think about our states of Pennsylvania and New Jersey bordering that that Delaware River, the Delaware itself is responsible for 15% of the total stock, which is a pretty healthy number. It is. But now it raises the question, another one that I don't really know is how many of those fish from the Delaware and the Chesapeake are using the C and D canal? There are a lot of things that we don't know about striped bass right now. We don't know much about the spawn. We don't know how many of those fish are ending up in ocean waters. How many smaller resident, so-called resident fish, are using the C and D canal to go back and forth between the Chesapeake and Delaware and aren't getting out in the ocean run. There are a million questions we don't know about striped bass. But the only thing that I would leave is that we are not in a death's door in striped bass. The spawning stock biomass is not in bad shape. What we do have to have concerns about, and we all should, as anglers, over the next few years, if the numbers uh from the Chesapeake, Maryland, Virginia, and the Hudson, and also the Delaware spawn uh SAIN surveys, if they're all accurate, we are going to see fewer fish in the mix over the next few years because there's there's supposed to be less younger fish. So we're going to see fewer fish. But when we do, I hope folks remember, oh yeah, that's what we were talking about. That's that spawning, that's that spawn. Spawning stock biomass is up here, spawns are down here. It's a vicious cycle.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 21:11

So right. Right. And I I I just always have the issue with, you know, we just don't know enough. And I I just wonder when we're gonna figure some of this stuff out. Like we don't know. All right, so the Chesapeake is one of the traditional known spawning areas, the Hudson, you know, those are two the two big uh two big ones.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 21:33

But we don't know. Just speak Delaware and Hudson, yeah. We're in Delaware. So we know that there's other spawning estuaries, could be the Mullica, the Great Egg in New Jersey, the Housatonic in Connecticut. I I would dare say the Hackensack, but the Hackensack's probably considered portion of the of the Hudson. Right. We know that there are smaller estuaries that are producing fish, but in terms of the large numbers of recruitment of young of the year, you have young of the year, that's the baby stripers in year in the first year that they're they're hatched, and then they they use a recruitment year, the year after that. So they monitor how many fish became from went from here to here. So a recruitment class is the year after they're born. The the biggest number of fish in our stock comes from the Ches Peak first, the Hudson, and the Delaware. And they don't really consider all those other, let's call them little feeder estuaries. They're not really producing the way the Chesapeake is supposed to and historically has.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 22:29

But do we know that there aren't, they haven't just moved to another spot? I mean, are they in the Hustatonic? I mean, there it seems to me they should be, you know, with the way that everything has moved north, that that opens up, especially that river, that opens that opens that up as a real possibility. Do we know that there's you know they don't travel the same way that they used to? Just look in New Jersey as an example. You don't you don't get that spawn or that that migration through the rips and hanging out in the rips. So something has changed. You talking Cape May? Cape May. So so something has changed, and I don't think it's the numbers, it's where they're going.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:10

I'm gonna throw a curveball at you. You want a curveball?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 23:12

Okay, yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:13

So tell me the year that you remember the last year where the Cape May rips were and and the the November fishery in Fortescue with the the lumps and the horseshoe and pintop. When was the last time that was a great fishery?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 23:28

I'm gonna guess and say 2000.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:33

2000. That's 25 years ago.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 23:35

Yeah, at the latest.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:37

So that's 25 years ago, and it's it's gone down significantly every year since then, right?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 23:42

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:43

What happened 25 years ago? Do you know?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 23:46

Well, so we had well, first of all, we had uh tons of pollution coming through the Delaware and out into the Delaware Bay. That's one. Didn't we? We had a big storm, too.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 23:56

Well, what I'm saying, here's my point. So in 2000, New Jersey banned the reduction industry from operating in state waters. And in the 90s, the folks from Omega in Virginia were raped. I don't know if they'll listen. So they are they're doing a lot of damage on our bunker stocks.

Speaker 01: 24:17

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 24:18

In 2000, we kicked them out of New Jersey waters, and then subsequently other states did the same thing. So there's it's illegal to operate a reduction fishery inside of coastal waters. In that time frame, we saw the inshore bunker population explode.

Speaker 01: 24:33

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 24:33

And I know folks are are really worried about omega right now, and they're they're a concern, and I'm not a big fan, but according to the data, ASMFC data, we are at a 40-year high in terms of the bunker population. So 20 years ago, we started seeing this inshore bunker population pop up. And they're there in the spring and they're there in the fall. And what's the what's the key term that we always say about to we advise each other as fishermen, don't leave fish to find fish.

Speaker 01: 25:01

Yep.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 25:02

Well, 25 years ago, if there weren't a lot of bunkers, striped bass were rooting around the mud in the Delaware Bay looking for whatever they could to eat. Now there's so much bunker off the beach. I just don't think that the there's a reason for the stripers to come into the Delaware Bay in the fall because all that bait is off the beach. So I think there's a direct relationship, and I'm not saying that the bunker reduction bill was bad, but what I'm saying is there's a cause and effect. And then the same time frame that the striper fishery kind of collapsed into Delaware Bay and the Cape May rips, that's when the offshore bunker population skyrocketed.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 25:40

So I really want to argue with you right now, but that that actually does line up. I remember back in the day taking with the Loran on the boat.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 25:53

We can argue the Phillies are down four.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 25:56

Sorry. I was afraid of that. I saw an MLB thing pop up on my phone. I didn't know. I was getting texts, and then I just looked at it. That's why I have the red behind me for the Phillies, but apparently I should just turn them back. Just turn it black. Yeah. So I really want to argue. I remember back in the 90s being out on the boat and seeing Omega literally right off the beach and just ripping through the bunker and you know, knowing that it is I remember like calling people and trying to get them moved out and and all that stuff, and it was right in between. We were, I mean, we were going between them catching the catching the fish. Now we now we don't. Now there's nothing down there.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 26:38

So okay, I want to argue because it sounds like you're being nice to Omega, but I'm not arguing that I'm not being nice to Omega. I hate them, but I'm also very cautious on what I say because they have been known, media people, they're they're known to go after them. They've got big bank accounts. I'd have gone after them on facts in the magazine, but I'm also very cautious because I almost said the R word, because that's what I believe they're doing to our inshore populations of fish.

Speaker 01: 27:06

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 27:06

But I'm very cautious about going after them. But uh I can tell you this there earlier this year, earlier in the summer, there was this video, it was the greatest video I saw. It was my buddy, Captain Vinny Calabro from the Carran up in New York, Jamaica Bay, and a bunch of other captains did this video talking about the decimation of the bunker schools, and they were appealing to the president by saying, these are a this is a Canadian company, that they're they're destroying our ocean. I was like, finally, somebody gets it, because they went after the fact that Trump's in office, he likes he likes to battle against other countries, yeah, and this is a Canadian problem. So I do know that there are there are groups of lobbyists down in Washington for pro-Omega and anti-Omega, now butting heads at the White House to try to get them to do something, because it is a Canadian company that has taken all this bunker. But that's really the only answer. At the Atlantic State's Marine Fisheries Commission, they ultimately have the decision on how much quota to dole out to Omega or to put time and area closures in. I'd I that's what I'd like to see. You know, that's something they have in the herring fishery. If we can't attack their business in federal waters, then maybe we can make an argument that their operation in federal waters at a time when the whales are there and the stripers and the bluefin tuna are there, that they're interrupting the ecosystem. So there are potentials for us to do something there. But again, I just think that, you know, I somebody kind of posted, you know, have the spawning grounds change. I think there's a lot of things with striped bass that have changed. It's it's a it's about the bait, it's about the warming waters. I think they're doing things now that they haven't done before. You know, the guys out in eastern Long Island in Montauk, they're they're like striped bass have collapsed. They don't exist anymore. I was like, dude, come down a sandy hook.

Speaker 01: 28:56

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 28:57

Because the fishery that you used to have 15 years ago, we didn't have that 15 years ago. They were out there. Now they're here. So they're just moving. And when they move from your backyard, you don't see them in your backyard. Your ethereal is stripers have collapsed and we've got to do something about it. But I think pragmatically, I'm hoping that these commissioners, when they meet at the end of this month, will try to figure out something that's really sensible. You know, going back to that vote, I think that you were asking me my flavor for which direction this is going to be. There are 16 votes at the at the ASMFC striped ass management board. So I know somebody's tallying up votes now and trying to figure it out. But it seems to me that the northern region is more in favor of the 12% reduction, where more states in the southern region are in favor of status quo. So it's really going to be, you know, talk about talk about politics. This is fishery science with politics. It's going to be who can get who can Get that eight or ninth vote, you know.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 30:03

It's gonna be a disaster. It's gonna be interesting. You know where Maryland's coming in? Because they're they always seem to be the opposite of New Jersey.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 30:11

Not necessarily on this one. I don't know. I can only guess what different states are gonna do. You know, like for example, my guess is right on our border for us in New York, they have a situation where there's a difference of opinion in their community. A lot of surfcasters want the 12%. A lot of people at the west end of New York and into New York City and Brooklyn, they want the status quo, the for hire one status quo, the tackle shops one status quo. But every state has three commissioners to lend one vote, right? Right. So the three commissioners caucus. If one commissioner wants A and two commissioners want B, well, that two wins. And that's the vote. So it's either two to one or three to nothing. New York's in a funny situation. They're missing a third commissioner right now. So you've got one commissioner who has historically gone the status quo route, and the head of the division of fisheries up there is leaning towards the 12% cut route. So if that vote were to go, you know, 50-50, that's a null vote.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 31:19

Now, the but that's an appointed position, correct?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 31:22

Every one of those positions is appointed. The governor selects a person to represent his or her interests. Then there's a representative from the state fish agency up there. It's the New York DEC. And then there's a third person that is assigned as a legislative person. For example, in Pennsylvania, your third commissioner in Pennsylvania is Assemblywoman Amanda Gullick, Kulik, I can't remember her last name. She's a she's from outside of Pittsburgh. Okay. So the legislative position is the one that's missing in New York. But, you know, that was also something I gotta tell you, I was a little ticked off in Pennsylvania. 70 people there. Dr. Tim Schaefer's proxy kit, Chris Kuhn was on the webinar portion. Tyler Grobowski was sitting in there running the meeting.

Speaker 01: 32:11

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 32:11

But two of Pennsylvania's commissioners weren't even on the webinar. So they didn't even listen to the people who are speaking. And that's the governor's appointee, Lauren Lusdick, and the legislative rep. And I was really disappointed in that because you know I hear all the time from folks like at the ASMFC saying, you know, people in the public don't want to participate anymore. Well, that's a two-side, this two-way street, isn't it? So if you're not gonna actually even attend a meeting to listen, well, that's disheartening. So New Jersey was different. We had all our commissioners there, as I remember.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 32:44

I I'm not surprised with you know Pennsylvania. I'm also not surprised that you have somebody all the way out in Pittsburgh that's one of them who has nothing to do with probably most of the fishing, unless it's maybe they're talking about the fishing on the Great Lakes. I don't know.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 33:02

She might have ticked off Governor Shapiro. I don't know, and that's her punishment. I have no idea.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 33:07

Yeah, I don't know. That it is disappointing. Now, I I had Nick Nick was saying last week that he had a couple of issues with the overall target, and that was a question also in here that that 125%, you know, was one of the things we kind of covered that. So I I I kind of understand why they put the target at 125%. You know, if you're gonna throw something arbitrary, people, you know, politicians, they like big round numbers. But but my question goes back to something else the mortality rate, which is what this is based on. And Nick mentioned that they admitted that they have no idea if the circle hooks did anything to help.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 33:49

Well, we knew that from the beginning. I love Nick, but Nick also got to grab a hold of him, get him into a fisheries management course. Because these are the meetings I go to, right? And I reported this a couple of years ago. The last, the very last vote when the ASMFC was getting ready to implement this circle hook rule. Some idiot in the online raises his hand. They say, Yes, Mr. Hutchins. And I said, So when this new circle hook mandate gets implemented, what's the process for lowering the mortality rate from 9% to say seven or six? Because now we are going to be having healthier release rates. So when are we going to reap the benefits? And at that moment they said, Well, we're not doing that. So I warn people all the time about this. When when a when a manager or a politician asks you to take a sacrifice, your first response is, What do I get in return? Now, I wouldn't do that with a friend or family member, but when it when you're talking about fisheries, if they tell you you got to do something, I want to know what the end reward is. Because we have been used to taking these sacrifices, just take a little bit now. Take a little bit now, it's going to get better in the in the future. Black sea bass is a perfect example of why that's a flat out lie. Because they have been hammering away at our black sea bass fisheries for the last 15 years, and we are now at over 200% rebuilt. And they still won't give us any additional days because we want to be careful here.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 35:18

Right, right. Yeah, it's not enough. It's just uh it's you know, you give some people a little bit of power and they'll never give it up.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 35:26

And it's I don't even know if it's that sinister, it's just it's a bureaucracy. It's it's a it's it's just such a broken bureaucracy. And the ASMFC right now, in my opinion, is is seriously flawed. And and a lot of stuff, you know, I might sound like a jerk, but uh, and and this includes Pennsylvanians too. Nobody likes New Jersey. You know, it goes back to the Eagles. Nobody likes us, we don't care. But nobody likes New Jersey. So these a lot of these rules come down, they're arbitrary against New Jersey. For example, you want a 12% cut? Well, let our division of fish and wildlife meet with all the stakeholders and figure out the best way to take a 12% cut. Take a little bit from south, take a little bit from the north, maybe a little out here and a little bit. We can come up with it. And ASMFC says, no, no, no, no. You we're gonna lump you in with a region with that includes Connecticut and Rhode Island.

unknown: 36:10

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 36:11

And you're all gonna have to close down your December fishery. So what I'm asking is across the board, if you were don't give me phony stats. Across the board, if you were to take a 12% reduction and lose the month of December in all those states, I bet you a reduction is about three or four percent in Connecticut. It's gonna be about 25% in New Jersey. That's the fact. Yeah, so this is a broken system, and I I think it needs to be fixed. And but you know, that's that's why we're in this situation where we are right now.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 36:42

Yeah, and that it's that it's that time frame is just a killer. I mean, it and it to your point, it doesn't kill it doesn't kill Massachusetts.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 36:51

Massachusetts won't even here's the thing. So just so everybody knows, if you were to do Maine to Massachusetts, their closure won't be in December. They're going to have to take a 41-day no-harvest closure in wave four, which is July and August. So that's when their fishery is at its peak in Massachusetts, is July and August. So that's why that's part of the reason for this separating of regions. So Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, but especially Massachusetts, if you think about it, they have to take 41 days and not harvest stripers in July and August. And and I and I'd argue all the, they'll tell you what, they're having a hell of a problem up there right now during the summer months with the sandbar sharks, the brown sharks, not just the great whites, but the sharks are all over the place. Guys cannot get striped bass back to the boat fast enough to bring them in the boat.

Speaker 01: 37:51

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 37:51

So to me, it's like, well, then you should probably take the 39-day no-targeting closure because if you target striped bass, they're just going to go into the shark's belly, and your mortality rate's probably closer to 25%.

Speaker 01: 38:04

Right, right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 38:05

So, yeah, there's a lot of questions, a lot of a lot of data, a lot of questions, a lot of stats, and that's where we stand.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 38:12

Let me ask you this did it come up at all the onus tag program? And and if they were to eliminate that, would that do anything to the no?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 38:24

Because that's that's the commercial. Now, a lot of anglers in other states want New Jersey to give up our bonus program. They they hate it. But that's our commercial quota. So if they take a 12%, if this 12% reduction goes across the board, commercial and recreational, the way it's supposed to, New Jersey, New Jersey's commercial quota right now is 200,000 pounds. Yeah. So if we took a cut, we would go down to 176,000 pounds. That commercial quota is what we base our striped bass bonus program on. So we have tags and they issue enough tags and they never go up close to their quota. We've probably used at most 30% of that 200,000 pound quota. Right. So while the other states would like to go after that, that's our commercial quota. Our state of New Jersey can theoretically do re within reason what they want with it. Now, let me give you another example. Massachusetts, I know a lot of Massachusetts guys are the ones that are arguing hottest about New Jersey's bonus program. Massachusetts current commercial harvest is 683,773 pounds.

Speaker 01: 39:37

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 39:38

So if they were to take a 12% cut, they would go down to 601,000 pounds. Now, anybody in Massachusetts with a pulse can go get a striped bass commercial permit. So you can not just be an angler, you can go out and be a commercial permit holder. Yeah. And you can catch 35 inch and over stripers and sell them at the dock. Now, right now, the way Massachusetts commercial harvest works is you don't have to put the tag in your striped bass until you're at the market selling your fish. One of the changes that's in this proposal, as well as the 12% reduction, is a mandate that it's got to go through a vote, that either you tag the fish as soon as you land them in your boat or you tag them before you offload them at the dock. In theory, right now, Rich, you and I can go up to Massachusetts in July. I'll pay the commercial permit fee. We'll trail my boat up, take the week off, and every day we'll be commercial striper fishermen.

unknown: 40:36

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 40:36

We'll bring them home, we'll offload them at the dock. You take two to the truck, I'll sell the other eight. We'll go out tomorrow morning, we'll keep selling fish and keep tagging. We will make a profit and be able to come back with a bunch of 35 inch and over striped bass. How Massachusetts thinks our how anybody thinks our stripe ass bonus program is corrupt when you've got that going on? It's beyond me.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 40:58

And and I don't think it's corrupt. Let me just make that clear. My question is if we were to say you can't use the that program during during November, December, what does that do to our mortality?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 41:17

So that's going to be it too. So the one caveat. When there's a recreational closure in New Jersey, so let's say next next December is closed, yeah, then we will not be able to use our bonus program during the closure.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 41:29

But what if we don't close it? What or I should say, what if we were to not close targeting? Well, no, because that would be at the harvesting. What if we only got rid of the bonus tag for October through December?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 41:43

We don't get any benefit. There's no okay. No, you don't get any benefit because that's a commercial. The only the only caveat being is whenever striped bass is closed for recreationals next year, be it harvest or no target, we cannot use our bonus program during that time frame.

Speaker 01: 41:58

Yeah. Okay.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 41:58

So that's the one caveat we've been we've been sent. Okay. Yeah, I I brought it up though with some friends in management. I said, well, then in Massachusetts, whenever their recreational fishery is closed, then there shouldn't be any commercial fishing either, because too many recreational fishermen pretend to be commercial striper. Right. So so that's something that I'd I'd love to see. That won't happen. Well, I would love to see these are look. I'm never going to be on a fisheries council. Nobody wants me, and I'm not going to be very I'm going to be an idiot.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 42:28

But you're not going to be diplomatic enough. I'm plenty diplomatic.

unknown: 42:33

Yeah.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 42:33

Oh, is that it? Sure. Really very diplomatic. I I just keep I I just want to like rack my brain and see what makes sense. But you know, it's rare that something that makes sense actually happens. You know what I mean? And I I get the whole bonus tag thing, but I'll tell you what, Jim, I know guys that are up north and they are commercial, and all they do is just troll everybody because they'll go out and they'll catch their fish and then they'll post the the kill at the dock, and it's just loaded with these big things. And they're like, Yeah, I made money, paid for the gas, paid for you know a whole month of fishing this week. And they, you know, they went commercial fishing for five days.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 43:13

Yeah, I don't mean to pick a fight with those guys, but you know what? The somebody else drew first blood. So once once people started being overly critical, look, you've got these people that are in this association whose name I will not say, they're going after New Jersey and they're going after the bonus program because New Jersey anglers get to use a portion of the commercial permit, the commercial quota to catch 24 to less than 28 inch, primarily male and smaller estuary fish, right? And guys are going nuts on that. But you know what they don't say anything about is Pennsylvanians on the Delaware River between the Salem River and the Calhoun Street Bridge can keep a slot fish at a time when New Jersey Anglers can't keep any fish. And in Delaware, they've got a summer slot of 22 to 26 inch fish. Now, I don't want to pick on Delaware or Pennsylvania either. Every state should have its own bit of autonomy. But New Jersey voluntarily closes the Delaware during the spring spawn. And again, we get nothing, no credit for that. New Jersey voluntarily closes the Back Bay Striper fishery in January and February to protect winter holdover fish. We don't get any credit for that. And it's always heaping mounds of poop sent down to New Jersey. And that's why New Jerseyans kind of get a little bit upset. What I'm happy about is my Pennsylvania friends, the folks that come into New Jersey to saltwater fish, I'm hearing it. I heard it in Bristol. Status quo is the answer. So that's the answer. You know, that's that seems to be what two states want. You know, I'd I'd like to see how, you know, I'd like to see how these states vote. You know, I want to see how these states vote in terms of the responses they got from the public. Like I said, I haven't weighed in on a position. Both both both concepts have merit, but I think when you lay out the data, it's really kind of, you know, why are we doing this?

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 45:01

Yeah. I mean, I'm very clear on my stand. Uh it's status quo for me. And then look, if it changes, it changes. But it seems to me that in 2027 we're going to have a much better idea as what's going on than than what we have right now. Just my thought.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 45:17

Sorry, I was just looking at a great comment. I'm kind of looking at these comments as they come in. Yeah. If a shark takes a striper, is the mortality rate lower than if you used a circle? I love it. Yeah, I think it is. Yes.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 45:27

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it can that that's the way that you can use stats to say whatever you want.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 45:31

You do stats, Rich. Come up with a stat to support that argument.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 45:34

Well, it's it's very simple. If the shark takes it, it has nothing to do with us, so we can't get blamed. You know, that the shark was already in the water. I wonder if we should just have a a big a big uh shark fishing thing up there to help the stocks, you know. Some big tournaments up there. Get rid of some of the sharks for them.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 45:55

Well, that'd be something, you know. There's there's there's federal legislation called uh about shark depredation because it's it started down in Florida in recent years and it's really bad, but now it's getting bad along the upper northeast, especially up in Massachusetts. We see it in our tuna fishery off of Jersey right now. I mean, a tuna fishery is being inundated with people not being able to bring their tuna on board because of the sharks.

Speaker 01: 46:20

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 46:21

But you know, for the last 15 years, you can blame the humane society for this. It was like demonizing shark fishing, and you know, you can't eat sharks. And you know, we have we have protected sharks to the point where we removed a sustainable shark fishery. I'm not one to eat a lot of sharks. I like Mako, but you know, we are part of the ecosystem. And people that say human beings aren't part of the ecosystem, I really ticks me off. You can have a sustain, we can have sustainable harvest on a lot of these fisheries.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 46:50

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 46:51

And and I'd like to see us get back to that again.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 46:53

I'd at least like to see the spiny dogfish go back on the menu. That's the most ridiculous example ever. But I used to I used to fish for shark. That was my thing. Oh, really? And I I and I got tattoos of sharks on my back for because that was what I always loved doing, and that's all I did for years. And I stopped because of all that, and I don't know, I don't know why. I still miss it. I still miss catching a Mako and you know, never landed a thresher though. That that always disappointed me.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 47:24

But well, it's funny the uh you mentioned the spiny dogfish because spiny dogfish over in the UK, their spiny dogfish stock is considered overfished.

Speaker 01: 47:36

Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 47:37

So for years, the UK was getting our spiny dogfish for fish and chips. It was a nicer relationship. We were taking our spiny dogfish, commercial fishermen were happy, shipping them overseas, everything was great. Then some environmentalists started going to protect the spiny dogfish, and now we lost our fishery. And the commercial fishermen in New Jersey, once it reopened, they lost their market because the UK fish and chips folks said, Oh, we got to find another place for fish and chips. We don't want your spinies anymore.

Speaker 01: 48:05

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 48:06

But now the environmentalists have shut down a spiny dogfish fishery in England, so now we're we're able to move some more spiny dogfish. Here's the funny thing in the commercial sector, they can trade quota. You know, it's like New Jersey will call up North Carolina and say, uh, hey, you know, we don't have many bluefish right now, and and most of the bluefish are off of Carolina. You want my bluefish quota? I'll trade you for your spiny dogfish quota, and it's like a trade.

Speaker 01: 48:33

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 48:33

So that's something that happened last year, and we might be seeing it again this year. And folks can come down hard on the commercial fishermen all they want. And you know, I I when it comes to gear and allocation, we have battles, but in terms of killing more spiny dogfish, I'll just sit back and say that's a good trade.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 48:50

Yeah, I don't I don't mind. I mean, look, if you want to if you want to get a movement together to get, I mean, just grab every tog fisherman along the entire east coast and you will you will have all the support you need to open up spiny dogfish wide again.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 49:07

Last year, I'm standing on the beach at Manasquan. We're getting into my favorite season where I just disappear. If you ask me to do a podcast next month, I'll say no way. Because I just spur of the moment, I'm going. So anyway, I'm in this pretty good striper bite at Manasquan last November at sunset. And we're all finished up and we've got our rods over our shoulders. We're kind of talking about it. We all from the distance, we see the boil. It's like, boys, we're gonna get another shot at this. This is great. And we watch this boil, watch this boil come in, watch it come in, and we start throwing casts. It was a spiny dogfish blitz on peanut bunker and sand heels because we all landed spiny dogfish. I was like, that has not I've not seen that before. So I turned it into a water.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 49:46

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 49:47

That it's time to pack up. When you see spiny dogfish blitzing on bait in the wash, oh my god, it's the biggest disappointment you've ever experienced.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 49:55

That's terrible. That is that's just that's just rude. That that's that's God saying you should be at home right now, Jim, and I'm gonna get you there. It worked. Well, listen, hey, I I appreciate you coming on. I feel I feel really concerned because I I I just don't trust. I just don't trust the way that things are gonna are gonna go. And I I'm afraid that we're gonna see something happen in December. And I I just think it's not necessary yet. It's not to say it won't be at some point, it's possible. I just don't think that we're there yet. And I think it's you know, you made the comment a couple years ago. Be careful about wishing for the regulations on sheep's head because we don't know anything about the numbers. We haven't researched them yet. And be careful what you wish for. You you're very good at saying be careful what you wish for. I was taught this. Yeah, and I but I think that's what we're looking at right now. It's an overreaction to something that might happen. You know, it's like a cop can't arrest you for what he thinks you might do next week unless he has evidence that you're planning to do it. And we don't necessarily have that evidence that this fishery is going to collapse. I don't see any.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 51:07

I'll give you two perfect examples of what we're talking about. So, yeah, I know the state of New Jersey is talking about spinach uh uh sheep's head management, and I think it's a good thing to discuss it, and then you figure it out. I have seen it in my some of my area waters where we have a localized depletion. Once a few of us get on the sheep's head, they all of a sudden disappear, they're gone. Well, we got to wait for the next movement coming. So they're gonna figure it out, and it's gonna bring stakeholders together to have this discussion because there is no fishery management plan. But you know, that's that's the thing we're looking at. You mentioned before enforcement, and a lot of folks now are, you know, there's what I hear the biggest proponents right now, the the most passionate supporters of a 12% reduction, when I say, well, then we should all stop fishing for them for that period of time. Let's take the shorter closure. It's like, no, I'm not gonna keep fishing, I'm gonna keep catching and releasing, but you're the one that says stripers are in trouble. Yeah, so 50% of the mortality is coming from a harvest guy, and 50% is coming from you, then we should all do this, right? I'm not gonna do it. And I was like, well, then do you really think there's a problem with stripers, or do you just want to attack the harvest guys? Are you trying to turn this into a pure catch and release fishery? And I know there's a segment of the population would like that done, but there's one argument they're using is they're saying no targeting is unenforceable. And that's not true because I know enforcement officers are issuing fines for people that are fishing in the back bays of New Jersey using a Rappela X-rap for white perch in the winter. Yeah, no, they're not. You're going for a striped bass. The problem is they're issued a ticket, they go to court, and they're thrown out of court. So it's not that it's unenforceable. The enforcement officers can issue the tickets, it's not being prosecuted because of lax laws in our courtrooms, and because people with fisheries violations are going in the same court of law as meth heads and street walkers and and other people.

unknown: 53:02

Sure.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 53:03

And now that's got to be fixed as well. So I don't I don't buy that. I I just think that we really have to get to a point if we want to sustain this fishery in the future. If you really believe that striped bass should be pure catch and release only and nobody should ever kill a striped bass again, you're in your element because this is your fight and you brought it to the table, and we're getting ready for that nuclear option, and God bless you. But if you really want to have a sustainable fishery in the future with harvest and catch and release and the best possible fishery, then we should all be sitting together and talking about this and having these discussions at the management table, similar perhaps to what's being discussed about Sheep's head without a gun to our head. Right. You know, so I think that's got to be our goal for the future is bringing all the different varying uh beliefs and viewpoints to one table and really talk about what we expect from this fishery.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 53:51

So well, it'll be interesting. When when do you think we're gonna know where where we're gonna stand with this?

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 53:58

The Wednesday of I looked it up the other day. The meeting is I think the 27th through the 30th. I think Wednesday, October 29th is the strike bass meeting. That's going to be in Dover, Delaware.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 54:13

But that's not where they get make the decision, right? Doesn't it? That will be the after.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 54:17

Oh, that is that will be the day when they decide on the 12% reduction. Then what happens is if the 12% reduction is approved, now the two regions then have to get together and figure out how they're going to meet out their 12% reduction in what waves and in what form. So it's a two-prong process there. Okay. Now, if if it fails, if it just stays status quo, then we then we go again. And now we have to wait. We'll we'll we'll you know, wait until MRIP numbers next year, we'll wait until the stock assessment is done in 27, whatever it might be.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 54:51

I'd like to see that. I'd like to see that. And I'd like to see some improvements on it. And and and by the way, they need to get more of those satellite tags going. It was mentioned in the chat. It would be great to see some of those in the northern Chesapeake, so we can see where those fish are going if they're heading out to the Delaware and out to the ocean.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 55:08

So let me answer that question. We don't have the we don't have the technology for that just yet. And here's why the um Because it's insure. Because it's well, there's two, yes, that's one thing, and it's also salt fresh. So the problem with the mini pat mini PSAT devices from wildlife computers is they don't play well in fresh water. So we actually lose data, we lose tags, they stop working in freshwater. That has hindered us because when we sat down to talk about how to do the satellite tagging, we wanted to have fish go up the Hudson or up the Chesapeake and come out. Can't do that. Secondarily, what you just said is our satellite tracking doesn't work so well in an estuary. We've tried it in the Chesapeake several times, but we don't get great numbers because it's very difficult to kind of triangulate everything. The the data itself that's stored in the tag, it doesn't react well to being in that close confined area of land, right? Open ocean for the satellite tags. For the satellite tags, yes.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 56:09

So when they when they tag redfish, for example, when they do a release of redfish in Florida, they they'll release them in a certain area and they have like stations. Those are the tag passes the station, that's where they do it. That's where they do it.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 56:25

So that is one concept that we should probably look at. Those are uh acoustic transmitters, right?

Speaker 01: 56:29

Right, right. Yeah.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 56:30

So um I know Rutgers and Stockton and Monmouth University have all done and continue to do uh acoustic uh implants. They have a variety of sounders up and down the coast. And we're working with uh New England states as well. So there's these um there's these acoustic receivers out there. Well, and we've done this. I did it with the Berkeley Striper Club a few years ago. Catch a striper, make an incision, implant the acoustic transmitter, sew that fish back up again, pat them off, and send them on his way.

Speaker 01: 56:58

Right.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 56:58

What we're hoping to do too is what I would ideally like to do is grab one of our stripers for the Northeast Stripe Bass study, get one of those 40-inch fish, put the green streamer tag in, put the mini pat device in, and put an acoustic transmitter in there. Um ideally, I want to be able to do that in the future. So, in theory, where those inshore acoustic receivers are located, it'll pick up that striper, and then I can try to ground truth what I'm finding from my satellite tracking when it gets outside. So if I can ground truth its inshore-offshore migration, that would help me better figure out if these mini-pack devices are working real well with stripe bats.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 57:41

That would be great. We need more fundamentals. Let's get that funding. That's what it always comes down to. And then I'll I'll go out and help you catch them. Thank you.

Jim Hutchinson Jr.: 57:49

Appreciate that. Anytime.

Rich Natoli - Fat Dad Fishing: 57:51

All right. Well, hey, thanks for coming on. Uh we're gonna, I guess, get back and watch the Phillies with a massive comeback unless the game's over. Really? Massive comeback? You're just I like it. I'm really not. If you saw my social media posts, I said we were done over the weekend. So it was depressing. Yeah, yeah. It's uh last year all over again. Thanks, Jim. Thanks for coming on. Uh everyone, thanks for tuning in. This is gonna be out on the uh the podcast. Uh I'm gonna try to do it early again this week. I've been putting them up online a little quicker than normal. They usually go out on Thursdays. Hopefully, this is be out uh not tomorrow, but the next day. Um so thanks again. We'll be back next week. Not sure on the guests yet, but uh hey, we're we're coming into prime fishing time, so we'll be back. We'll be talking fishing, we'll be talking salt water next week. That much I do know. So until next time, everyone, get out there, get on the water, and get some tight lines.